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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 31, 2009 11:51:27 GMT 12
Maybe it was taken to Wigram from Harewood initially as that was the first logical step to remove it from the airport, and it probably sat there for a time and then they decided it was more logical to have it at Ohakea and it shifted. Shorty definately photographed it at Wigram and Denys has memories of it there too. So it must have been there. And you remember it being at Ohakea so yes it must have been moved up there.
I guess the firefighters were trained at Wigram then as they were in my time?
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Post by shorty on Dec 31, 2009 22:47:37 GMT 12
Here it is at Wigram in 1967 If I recall correctly there were no RoRo Cook Strait ferries in 61 which makes me think it was at taken to Woodbourne. There were some photos of it being off loaded into a wooden hangar sold on trademe a few months back
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2010 9:26:49 GMT 12
Here it is at Wigram in 1967 If I recall correctly there were no RoRo Cook Strait ferries in 61 which makes me think it was at taken to Woodbourne. There were some photos of it being off loaded into a wooden hangar sold on trademe a few months back "It" is incomplete! That's because the nose section was, in 1963, at Ohakea, then removed to wherever! It seems likely now that it was scrapped as it evidently wasn't at Wigram.
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Post by shorty on Jan 1, 2010 10:54:10 GMT 12
Thanks for pointing out that it was incomplete I may not have noticed otherwise! Can anyone ID this hangar? If it was taken to the NI how was it transported (and how much of it)? The Aramoana didn't enter service until 13-8-62, the Hercs didn't arrive until 1965 and I doubt you would have fitted the wings into a B 170, the forward fuselage maybe. I never heard of any bits of it when on the squadron.
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Post by angelsonefive on Jan 1, 2010 11:04:49 GMT 12
Don't forget that back in those days there was a ferry service running between Lyttelton and Wellington.
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2010 11:11:09 GMT 12
Thanks for pointing out that it was incomplete I may not have noticed otherwise! If it was taken to the NI how was it transported (and how much of it)? "the forward fuselage maybe". I never heard of any bits of it when on the squadron. Shorty, there appears to be a concerted effort here, by people who don't know for sure, [wheras I do!] that at least a part of that Canberra [and I say it was the nose section because I was there and saw it!] was never at Ohakea! Like you, I spent a long time, around Canberras, and also like yourself, can recognise a section of one when I see it. It was over on the far side of the airfield, near to one of the crash gates, and not visible from the squadron area, so perhaps it was out of sight out of mind? I spoke to two people yesterday, not squadron guys, who confirmed that it was there. I pointed out the photo showed an incomplete aircraft merely to confirm to those claiming that "it was all at Wigram" that it clearly wasn't. A comment you seem to have taken as an insult. It , the nose section, could have been carried easily in a Bristol Freighter, and as someone else has pointed out, it could have gone road/rail ferry via Lyttleton.
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2010 11:16:33 GMT 12
That hangar looks very much like the Ground Training Wing hangar, used by 3TTS; perhaps not!
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Post by angelsonefive on Jan 1, 2010 12:32:03 GMT 12
It would make sense, in my opinion, to remove the forward section of the fuselage and sent it back to Ohakea.
That part of the aircraft would contain a lot of useful and valuable components. Instruments, seats, avionics, navigator's equipment....
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Post by shorty on Jan 1, 2010 12:49:00 GMT 12
Right, more bits of the mystery. I don't think its GTW hangar at Wigram, my guess is 5 Hangar at Woodbourne because the Vampire seen in the photo has the number 8 visible on the u/c door, this narrows it down to one of the following: NZ 5728 cr. 1952 Can't be that one. NZ 5738 cr .1954 Ditto NZ 5748 No such aircraft (why was there a gap in Vampire serials?) NZ 5758 Stored Woodbourne from Aug 58 to Feb 68 NZ 5768 To INST 181 at 4 TTS April 59 NZ 5778 Stored Woodbourne Aug 58. RTS 1963 So working from those dates if that is an 8 in the number the hangar would have to be at Woodbourne. My thoughts as to a possible scenario are: Crashes at Harewood. Wings removed and wreck moved to Wigram. Detachment from WB strip wreck of engines etc and transport nose and front fuse to WB (as per photo). Aircraft reduced to produce except cockpit section (from bulkhead forward of wing) which is moved to Ohakea (possibly to survey as to the possibility of making into a procedures trainer) Damage too extensize so it's gutted and dumped on far side of OH. Remainder of wreck disposed of from either WB or WG. More questions though. If the above happened why was front fuselage sent back to Wigram? If the whole lot went WB why were the 2 fuselages sections sent to WG? Not enough for fire training and as seen in photo not burnt. When did the nose section disappear from OH? When, as young baggies, we sent on rudderlock detail on gusty days, we would hoon about in the rudderlock Landrover around the perimeter while waiting for the aircraft to return and never saw any sign of it. In fact I never heard a mention of it at all. This was 1968 and 69.
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2010 13:45:27 GMT 12
Right, more bits of the mystery. I don't think its GTW hangar at Wigram, my guess is 5 Hangar at Woodbourne because the Vampire seen in the photo has the number 8 visible on the u/c door, this narrows it down to one of the following: NZ 5728 cr. 1952 Can't be that one. NZ 5738 cr .1954 Ditto NZ 5748 No such aircraft (why was there a gap in Vampire serials?) NZ 5758 Stored Woodbourne from Aug 58 to Feb 68 NZ 5768 To INST 181 at 4 TTS April 59 NZ 5778 Stored Woodbourne Aug 58. RTS 1963 So working from those dates if that is an 8 in the number the hangar would have to be at Woodbourne. My thoughts as to a possible scenario are: Crashes at Harewood. Wings removed and wreck moved to Wigram. Detachment from WB strip wreck of engines etc and transport nose and front fuse to WB (as per photo). Aircraft reduced to produce except cockpit section (from bulkhead forward of wing) which is moved to Ohakea (possibly to survey as to the possibility of making into a procedures trainer) Damage too extensize so it's gutted and dumped on far side of OH. Remainder of wreck disposed of from either WB or WG. More questions though. If the above happened why was front fuselage sent back to Wigram? If the whole lot went WB why were the 2 fuselages sections sent to WG? Not enough for fire training and as seen in photo not burnt. When did the nose section disappear from OH? When, as young baggies, we sent on rudderlock detail on gusty days, we would hoon about in the rudderlock Landrover around the perimeter while waiting for the aircraft to return and never saw any sign of it. In fact I never heard a mention of it at all. This was 1968 and 69. That's because it was gone from Ohakea long before 1968; possibly taken away 1964, It certainly wasn't there in 1965/66. I have a vague recollection, so don't quote me, that someone objected to it being there, for whatever reason.
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Post by shorty on Jan 1, 2010 13:53:31 GMT 12
OK, so that's part one of the question sorted. Anyone know anymore of the answers?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 1, 2010 15:32:43 GMT 12
I sent the link to this thread to David Crooks in the hope he may be able to add more about his flight in the canopy-less Canberra, but have not yet heard back.
My guess Shorty is when the Canberra was released from its Court of Enquiry investigation at Woodbourne and reduced to scrap, it would have been then they decided to send the fuselage to Wigram as a training aid for the fire trainees of No. 3 TTS. Just a guess, but it seems logical.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 1, 2010 19:31:39 GMT 12
Interestingly, the National Archives doesn't seem to have a listing for the Accident Report on NZ6101. The ones they do have are:
Ground Accidents to Aircraft - Canberra NZ 6103, Ohakea 1959
Ground Accidents to Aircraft - Canberra NZ 6104, Ohakea 1961
Ground Accidents to Aircraft - Canberra NZ 6151, Ohakea 1962
Ground Accidents to Aircraft - Canberra NZ 6102 and MT SV 148 [Aircraft Type] 1963
Ground Accidents to Aircraft - Canberra NZ 6152, RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force] Fairbairn 1964
Any ideas as to why there is no report archived for NZ6101? Also, does anyone rememebr/know the circumstances of the other accidents above? NZ6104 was obviously the Canberra that landed with wheels up and later crashed fatally in Singapore, but what happened to NZ6102, 03 51 and 52? Was MT SV 148 an MT vehicle?
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Post by denysjones on Jan 1, 2010 20:43:38 GMT 12
Looking at the journals of the AHSNZ of 1962 I find that they first reported the crash of 01 and then in a following edition that 01 had been scrapped and that the remains trucked to Wigram. Interestingly they then add the comment that parts then subsequently made their way to Woodbourne.
As for the bit on the dump at Wigram I can vouch for its presence there in the night of the 24/6/72 when two university students primed with a couple of jugs of the Bush Inn's fine products removed the front seat from the remains of the adjacent Harvard reputed to be NZ1013.
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Post by camtech on Jan 2, 2010 9:12:16 GMT 12
Slightly off topic, but I note that AVM D S Crooks presented my LS&GCM in 1983.
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Post by phil82 on Jan 2, 2010 11:19:30 GMT 12
Slightly off topic, but I note that AVM D S Crooks presented my LS&GCM in 1983. Lucky you: mine arrived in the post!
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Post by shorty on Jan 2, 2010 11:32:54 GMT 12
I was in civvy street working for Mt Cook when they realised mine hadn't been awarded. I was invited back to go on a parade at Wigram to get it. Luckily I still had most of my uniform and they loaned me the bits I was missing!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 8, 2010 11:04:27 GMT 12
I have just had a reply from David Crooks about the incident where he flew the canberra without a canopy. He has kindly written down his memories of the event for us and supplied a couple of photos for this thread. Thanks David! Here it is in his words: Canberra Wheels-up, 13 March 1961The 13 March flight in NZ6104 was an initial student navigator familiarisation exercise for Pilot Officer Graham Lucas who was crewed with one of my pilot students on a Canberra conversion course. The B12 had systems and crew layout quite different from the T4 used for dual instruction. (Similarly, the student pilot was crewed with a staff navigator for his first flight). Pre-flight, taxi and take-off were all normal but on retracting the undercarriage the status light gave an abnormal indication for the port leg. To explain, the indicator shows green for each unit when down and locked, sequences through red for unsafe while the units are cycling to lights out when the gear is up and locked with the doors closed, the same sequence in reverse for lowering. The nose and starboard units had cycled through normally to lights out but the port unit was showing steady red, ie, unsafe. The cockpit canopy on the B12 was of the fighter type and off-set to the left side of the fuselage which, with some contortionist movement enabled a partial view of the extended port undercarriage leg from the pilot’s position. Nothing was to be seen so clearly the leg was at or near the top of the cycle and the problem either mechanical/hydraulic or an indicator circuit micro-switch fault, so I re-cycled to test. The nose and starboard units gave light indication of safe extension but there was no sight of the port leg which continued to show a steady red. That ruled out a faulty indicator and confirmed a localised system failure. I recalled having seen reference to the possibility of this condition resulting from a hydraulic sequence valve malfunction and, although the incidence of this was rare, I concluded that was the most likely cause. Having retracted the other two units I reported to control and arranged for a low slow fly-past so that observers could view and report the position of the gear. Sure enough it was confirmed that the door was up with the gear jammed up against it on the outside. It was the classical ‘catch 22’. The leg would not lower because it was programmed by the sequence valve not to do so until the door was open and clear. The door could not open because it was jammed shut by the leg which remained under full hydraulic pressure until the sequence valve sensed that it was fully up and locked, which could not be because it was blocked by the door. Great!! A possible solution was to remove all hydraulic pressure and hope that all legs would drop under their own weight, assisted by a bit of applied ‘g’, to engage the mechanical down locks. But that risked an asymmetric undercarriage configuration which was potentially much more hazardous than a clean belly landing, and there was the issue of flaps and brakes etc. Anyway, the question was academic as there was no way we could access the system from inside the aircraft to induce a failure. Discussion with the engineers and OC Flying confirmed what I had concluded after the recycling attempt – we were in for a belly landing and it was just a matter of configuring the aircraft for the event and making runway reception arrangements. The first thing was to reduce fuel load (we had full tanks) to lighten the aircraft and, since the B12 had no jettison facility, this was achieved by using high power against the airbrakes for an hour and a half at low level. I rejected any suggestion of a partial undercarriage arrival as unpredictable, potentially hazardous and certain to result in more damage to the aircraft than a clean belly slide. Similarly I opted squarely for the runway as a firm and even surface and much less likely to cause the aircraft to veer, broach or dig in than the uncertainties of turf (I had seen an RAF Venom in Singapore destroyed trying the grass). Because the only crew hatch was low on the starboard front fuselage there was a distinct possibility that it could not be opened at the end of the landing slide if the aircraft rolled on to the right wing tip (in the event it rolled the other way), and even if it didn’t there was the possibility of fuselage distortion which could jam the door anyway. The only other exit was from the pilot’s position but the canopy was non-opening, being held securely in place by explosive bolts. It was uncertain as to what would happen if the canopy was blown while at rest on the ground; it might detach, rise and fall back on its mounting or it might dish and either incapacitate the resident pilot or jam in the cockpit preventing exit. Either way, it was very heavy and would require external mechanical assistance to shift. The obvious option was to blow it in the air, which was part of the approved drill sequence for ejection. It was decided to carry out this procedure off the beach at Raumai just to the west of Ohakea to be clear of habitation. The heavyweight canopy was a considerable missile and there was the possibility that any uneven firing of the explosive bolts could cause the canopy to dish and incapacitate the pilot or tumble in flight to strike the tailplane which, in either case, would result in the aircraft falling out of control. For the jettison procedure the aircraft was flown at 180 knots at 3,000 feet. Preparations included positioning the navigator at the exit hatch (he had no ejection seat in the B12) and briefed to make an immediate departure if the aircraft went out of control or the driver (that’s me!) was clearly hors de combat. I lowered the seat to its fullest extent to lessen the possibility of a clout from the departing canopy and pulled the helmet visor down tightly to protect face and eyes. The cabin was kept pressurised to encourage canopy separation. While our aircraft were immaculately clean there is always a residue of grit released with decompression and there was the possibility of bolt fragments on firing so I closed my eyes at the moment of jettison, which was as well as an amazing amount of stuff whistled past. I warned the nav, advised the tower and tripped the switch. There was a sharp bang and we were cruising serenely in open sports mode. Having reassured the navigator (poor chap, this was his first B12 flight) and the tower that all was well we turned back to Ohakea. With the speed below 200 knots there was very little buffet, noise was not a problem, the ride was breezy but quite comfortable. In the circuit at Ohakea it was noted that an impressive reception array was in place at the business end of the runway, fire rescue, ambulance, crane and so on. The tarmac area and other vantage points were also well populated with spectators – this was after all a free show! Apart from checking that the undercarriage was securely up the final approach was normal from around 140 knots dropping to 110 at the threshold, thence a normal round out and gentle sink on to the belly. Touchdown and run out were impressively noisier and shorter than usual but the aircraft stayed dead straight and gently heeled over to the left as lateral control faded and we slid to a halt. I had briefed the nav that he was to vacate immediately we stopped, to ignore the side hatch and clamber over me and depart the aircraft while I went through the business of closing down engines, fuel, electrics and so on. He did so with alacrity – I can still feel those boots, he was a well built lad. The emergency crews were around the aircraft like a swarm of bees. There was some smoke from the friction of sliding but no fire, however they puffed everything with dry powder just in case. Solicitous hands were upon me before I’d completed the close down. Having left the aircraft I was greeted by a very relieved OC Flying, Wing Commander Alec Maisner, an RAF exchange officer. Next receptionist was the Base Commander, Group captain ‘Chunky’ Watson who escorted me to the waiting ambulance crew. I protested that I was perfectly OK to which he replied “I know but the medics insist, however, I’ve ensured that they have a stiff brandy ready for you”. Lovely man. Apart from the faulty sequence valve, lack of a canopy and the loss of skin abraded from the bomb-bay doors, the aircraft was undamaged. The undercarriage was secured in the down position with mechanical locks, the belly skin given a temporary covering of doped fabric, all systems checked and within two working days it was cleared to fly. It had been decided it should go to the Repair Depot at Woodbourne for a thorough check of airframe trueness, hydraulic system etc, permanent skin repair and replacement of the canopy (not as simple as it sounds, the explosive bolt mounts etc. had to be renewed and the canopy custom fitted – British aircraft, include handcraft and each a wee bit different!). The aircraft was flown to Woodbourne, with staff navigator Barry Cranston, at low level and 200 knots, quite comfortable and entirely uneventful. The accompanying photos show the aircraft on runway 27 at Ohakea immediately after arrival and the other of yours truly posing in the open cockpit, taken I think on arrival at Woodbourne. As a footnote, the student navigator, Graham Lucas, retrained as a pilot in 1965/66, left the RNZAF in 1971, joined Air NZ and was lost in the 1979 DC10 crash on Mt Erebus (I think he was an observer on that flight).
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jan 8, 2010 12:08:44 GMT 12
Brilliant story and so well told - many thanks for sharing your experience with us David.
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Post by ErrolC on Jan 8, 2010 19:35:10 GMT 12
Brilliant story and so well told - many thanks for sharing your experience with us David. Hear hear!!
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