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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 23, 2011 14:46:24 GMT 12
These photos come form Don MacKenzie's coillection. He was an RNZAF pilot and he flew Vickers Vildebeests in Singapore with No. 100 Squadron, before being posted to Ceylon in July 1941 to the Detached Flight that had six Vildebeests and four Fairey Seals. This is him training to drop torpedoes in Singapore, it looks as if this training was done in No. 36 Squadron Vildes. A closer look at the aircraft above, K4156 OE-T And this is later in Ceylon, the result of his CO getting drunk, taking off in this aircraft, buzzing the city and the aerodrome madly for half an hour and finally coming to grief when he hit the boundary fence.
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Post by steveh on Mar 23, 2011 15:23:24 GMT 12
Those are brilliant pics Dave, so very clear for their era. There is a thread on Britmodeller www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66426&st=0 where they're discussing the merits of the camo type applied to the Vildebeest in Singapore & the far east. It will be interesting to see what they make of these. Steve.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 23, 2011 23:11:27 GMT 12
I am glad that the photos are of interest Steve. I really like them myself.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 23, 2011 23:25:31 GMT 12
I have been reading the modellers's comments on the thread you linked to. Wow, quite a hub-bub over these photos.
Someone is suggesting that the aircraft nosed over is in a "Tropical Land Scheme". The aircraft was based at China Bay, Ceylon, and its role was specifically for general reconnaissance patrols and searches over the Indian Ocean.
Also comments about the squadrons who owned the aircraft. Don was on No. 100 Squadron. It seems obvious form the photos that his torpedo training was in No. 36 Squadron aircraft and I am 90% sure he told me that when I filmed an interview with him in 2009. After he was up to speed on flying Vildebeests and dropping torpedoes he was shipped out to Ceylon where he said No. 100 Squadron had a detachment. The aircrfat nosed over is from that detachment. So it's quite possible it has a different colour scheme all together as it's in a different part of the world.
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Post by alanw on Mar 23, 2011 23:48:53 GMT 12
Dave
You're Luckey they are only just dealing with the Vildebeests, they have really yet to start on the colour Schemes for the Short Singapores...
Your Vildebeest photos, seem to have thrown water on a few theories ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 0:17:08 GMT 12
Some further information on the Vildebeest unit in Ceylon that Don was posted to. The unit was apparently a detachment of either No. 100 Squadron or perhaps of the Wing that it belonged to in Singapore. All their orders came from Singapore, and Don wrote that there was a similar small detachment in Hong Kong belonging to the same unit. In Ceylon the CO was a Squadron Leader (or maybe Wing Commander) Harrison, who lived off the station and rarely flew and they seldom ever saw him. Next in command was Flt Lt John Chamberlain, who was the nephew of Neville Chamberlain. He'd been in the Far East for about 3 years by 1941, and was a heavy drinker. It was he who pranged the kite above. There was also a Canadian, Flt Lt Eddie Good, who later went to Europe and was killed. There was a Warrant Officer Ross who apparently died from a tumour on the brain after a ditching accident into the Indian Ocean from which he was rescued. I wonder if this is him? Can anyone here please trace this chap's units to see if he was in Ceylon? He may have been in India for hospital treatment - he's the only Warrant Officer Ross listed from the UK. www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2177679There were also two other kiwis, though Don himself was the first New Zealand pilot posted to Ceylon ever. They were Sgt Ted Carroll of Wellington and Sgt 'Snow' Viles. Don's wireless operator-air gunner was F/Sgt 'Dinger' Bell. When Singapore was attacked and fell, the Ceylon unit became an orhan unit. They received orders from Britain that they should fly their regular patrols with their four obsolete Fairy Seals that they had there, and to keep their six Vildebeests in reserve as defence of Ceylon. They were still flying Vildebeests when Ceylon was attacked by a Japanese carrier force on the 25th of April, 1942. Don had just landed from a patrol and was having breakfast when they attacked. Ted Carroll was in another Vilde and did not quite make it back, he and his WOp/AG spotted the Zeros and Vals, etc and landed on a beach. He flew in after they left. Ceylon was badly damaged in the raids and Don said a Swordfish squadron there lost 12 aircaft to one Zero, with 33 of the 36 men killed. Later on when all their Seals and Vildebeests had become unserviceable (I suppose as they had no support now from Singapore engineering and spares-wise), they borrowed Swordfish from a FAA unit at China Bay, Trincomalee. Later they also borrowed Fairey Albacores and Fairey Fulmars. So they had a lot of variety. Oh and what happened to John Chamberlain after that boozed up flight? he was Court martialled, but got off very lightly as the men on the board were his mates. Don talked to hi about that flight later and John assured him he didn't recall a think about it as he was so pissed. Don was later posted to India and he flew as a test pilot and delivery pilot for a maintenance unit, and over his wartime career flew over 50 aircraft types. He had amazing adventures including 'landing' a Walrus with wheels down in a water tank; being the first pilot to land and take off from what became the famous Red Road aerodrome (which was one of the main streets in Calcutta that they turned into a fighter base - Don was the proving pilot to show it could be done!); flying his dream aircrfat, the Mosquito, in India; and later going to Britian to be based with a VIP unit at Hendon. He flew all sorts of high rankers and politicians etc around Britian, Europe and the world from there. He was shot down whilst accidentally trying to land at an Allied aerodrome that had that afternoon been reoccupied by the Germans, with Lady Mountbatten aboard. Made an amazing landing in the shot-up aircraft and saved his passengers. He was also a passenger in a Blenheim in india, hitching a lift, and sitting unrestrained on the step down into the nose when it aquqplaned in bad weather on landing, and the aircraft cartwheeled. The nose broke off with him in it. He received just a small cut on his hand, the aircraft was a total write off. Some of the more unusual types he flew, of the 54 types in his logbook form WWII, include the Curtiss Mohawk, Curtiss Hawk, Fairey Seafox, Fairey Seal, Wapiti, Vultee Vengeance, and Bristol Bisley. More conventional types include the Spitfire, Hurricane, Mitchell, Hudson, Lockheed Electra, Liberator, Wellington, Mosquito, Oxford, Anson, Dakoa and many more.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 0:21:28 GMT 12
Alan, is that you on the thread who posted the link to my Short Singapore fantasy artwork? Not a good idea to include that ina discussion about historical colours, considering I hand painted it over a black and white photo of a silver Singapore using Photoshopand about 10 or more different layers from various photos to create waht is intended only as an artists' impression for my own enjoyment. Seeing that link there surprised me as it's clearly an artwork and not even meant to be a colourised photo. Shorty's prophetic words are coming back to haunt me!
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Post by buffnut453 on Mar 24, 2011 1:08:00 GMT 12
Dave You're Luckey they are only just dealing with the Vildebeests, they have really yet to start on the colour Schemes for the Short Singapores... Your Vildebeest photos, seem to have thrown water on a few theories ;D ;D ;D Alan, Unfortunately, all we have right now are theories and Dave is right that we have no guarantee that the same schemes were used in Singapore and Ceylon (although logic suggests that they ought to be because they came under the same command). The pics Dave has posted are so fascinating because they are so clear - much better than anything else that's been previously made available. If we could just get a rough guide on the types of colours used (brown, grey, green, blue etc), we could probably narrow the options down to something that can be accepted as the most likely scheme. Cheers, Mark
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Post by alanw on Mar 24, 2011 8:18:10 GMT 12
Dave You're Luckey they are only just dealing with the Vildebeests, they have really yet to start on the colour Schemes for the Short Singapores... Your Vildebeest photos, seem to have thrown water on a few theories ;D ;D ;D Alan, Unfortunately, all we have right now are theories and Dave is right that we have no guarantee that the same schemes were used in Singapore and Ceylon (although logic suggests that they ought to be because they came under the same command). The pics Dave has posted are so fascinating because they are so clear - much better than anything else that's been previously made available. If we could just get a rough guide on the types of colours used (brown, grey, green, blue etc), we could probably narrow the options down to something that can be accepted as the most likely scheme. Cheers, Mark Hi Mark Apologies if my comments about the theories seemed derisive, they were not meant to be, I was thinking of Graham's comment about being torpedoed (in a humerous context) when I wrote it, sad attempt at late night humour (sleep deprived too) sorry. My comments on the Singapores was along the lines of some of the "Ardent and vigorous" discussion on colours on BM of late I quite enjoy your discussion posts on All Things Singapore. Hi Dave I posted that link not as "what the colours should be" based your colouring of the photo, but rather more regarding a link I had made to a post by Peter (flyernzl) some time ago referencing an article in a New Zealand magazine. The magazine made reference to colours for the Singapore, your colouring seemed to similar- I had meant to drop you a line asking if that was the base of your colours or if you had used some other information but was side tracked. Again apologies for any confusion Regards Alan
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 9:57:03 GMT 12
I had read the article of course and have discussed the colour of the Singapores a few times, but when 'colouring in' the picture quoted I really went with what looked nice.
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Post by buffnut453 on Mar 24, 2011 10:38:23 GMT 12
Apologies if my comments about the theories seemed derisive, they were not meant to be, I was thinking of Graham's comment about being torpedoed (in a humerous context) when I wrote it, sad attempt at late night humour (sleep deprived too) sorry. No apologies necessary - no offence was taken at this end. I do get a tad miffed when people bang on about the pointless nature of discussions about aircraft colours but I think it's good to at least drive down the options to one or two most likely candidates. I quite enjoy your discussion posts on All Things Singapore. Oh dear, oh dear! I'd see a doctor if I were you. Expressing that you "quite enjoy" my droning and boring for NATO is tantamount to being certifiable! ;D Cheers, Mark
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 11:14:49 GMT 12
It must be contagious as I too enjoy your posts Mark. ;D
I don't think it is pointless at all to try to piece together forgotten history like this. It would be good if someone could find the paint scheme drawings tucked away in an archive and have all the exact specs, but I guess someone has already checked and they aren't there?
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Post by steveh on Mar 24, 2011 13:23:11 GMT 12
Hi Dave, the pics you posted above got pretty much the reaction I thought they would over on BM. The confusion about the squadrons was entirely my fault for not reading your post carefully enough, too excited by the pics I guess. I'd certainly not seen Vildebeests with such high contrast camo but I'm not game to guess what the colours were, I simply don't know enough & its a subject that causes endless discussion & not a little acrimony at times so I'd rather stay clear. Like Alan, I enjoy Marks comments on the Far Eastern operations & colour schemes, to my mind it helps to form a picture that one becomes happy with & there is sod all chance of authoritive rebuttal of ones chosen scheme because there simply isn't enough info to do so. Dave, your lengthy post with all that extra background info is a cracker. Fascinating,thanks. Steve.
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 24, 2011 13:34:55 GMT 12
Who cares about the colours! ;D These are the best Vildebeest photos I think I have ever seen. Thanks for posting them, Dave.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 13:35:51 GMT 12
Thanks Steve.
I have some info that i got this morning that might muddy the waters further. I rang my friend Ron Reid of Tauranga who flew with No. 36 Squadron this morning. He got to Singapore in late 1941, just before the war erupted there. I asked him what colour the Singapores were that he flew, and he was pretty clear and adamant that they were an overall light grey in colour. He said they were the same grey underneath. And he reckoned they were not camouflaged at all but were all one colour. He also said by that time they did not carry the No. 36 Squadron symbol on their tails (which he says was an eagle carrying a torpedo).
I asked him about the Albacores that the squadron took over there during the fight and he said they were pretty much the same colour. He has a sharp memory for details, but I don't know where this fits in to the scheme of things.
he thought the light grey scheme they wore wasn't much different from those here in NZ. Well those in NZ when he left were overall white or overall silver. So it's a bit confusing. had they changed their scheme at the end of 1941 (remembering the ones int he photos above are early-mid 1941).
I have tried to phone Don MacKenzie this morning but got the engaged signal. As soon as I get hold of him I'll pick his brains for info too.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 13:37:38 GMT 12
Cheers Craig, they are awesome aren't they?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 14:07:27 GMT 12
I still have had no luck contacting Don today, but in the meantime here's a photo of him I took on the 2nd of September 2009 next to a window he had made specially when he built his home.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 14:45:19 GMT 12
Quite a number of New Zealanders seem to have served on No's 36 and 100 Squadrons before and during the conflict in Singapore when you count them up.
I have the following names, can you add any more?
No. 36 Squadron Sgt Andrew Martin Hearn Fleming - (Albacore) killed on Endau raid 26 Jan 42 Sgt Thomas Steele Tanner - Killed Endau raid 26 Jan 42 Sgt Ron J. Reid - fought in Singapore and Dutch East Indies, flew the Vildebeest, and Albacore, survived Endau raid, later captured, I've interviewed him
No. 100 Squadron Sgt David Bruce Smaill Lee - killed on Endau raid 26 Jan 42 Flt Lt Colin N. Gardner, flew in combat on Vildes, lives in Tauranga Sgt Don MacKenzie - flew Vildes in Singapore before conflict George Hitchcock (I interviewed him about his Fiji days) George Gudsell (I interviewed him, he was on Beauforts, not Vildes with this unit)
Not sure which of the two squadrons these Endau raid survivors were on: P/O R C Barclay Sgt D L Buchanan Sgt HK Minton
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Post by steveh on Mar 24, 2011 18:22:46 GMT 12
Oh God, the Endau raid. I read about it in either Buffalos or Hurricanes over Singapore, maybe both, not sure now. If ever a raid was fated to failure but demonstrated the very best of human courage & determination it was this. Its right up there with the Esmonde sortie against the jerry battle wagons in the channel dash. I was literally moved to tears upon reading it. Sadness for the cruel waste of young lives, not a few of them Kiwis, & frustration for the arrogance & stupidity which had got them into that situation. Steve.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 24, 2011 19:26:30 GMT 12
Hell yeah, it is one of those amazing stories that really grabs you. And I feel very privileged to have met and interviewed two men who were there, Ron Reid who I mentioned earlier that I rang this morning to check colours for you guys, and Geoff Fisken who Ron said escorted him back from the raid. I really hope to get to meet and interview Colin Gardner who was also a pilot on the raid, fingers crossed.
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