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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 27, 2009 22:33:30 GMT 12
I just came across this thread on another forum that claims a German U-boat has been found and dived on in 40 feet of water off the Northland coast. I heard nothing about this when the news supposedly broke late last year. Has anyone else heard more? forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=145616 |
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Post by shorty on Jun 27, 2009 22:51:23 GMT 12
I have the clip on VHS tape of the news story from last year. The guy who claims to know about reckons the 80 odd Germans came ashore north of the Kaipara and merged into the local population. At that stage I became a sceptic.
I'll fish out the tape and have another look at it at some stage.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 27, 2009 23:00:56 GMT 12
Most of the local population round there would have been Maori, wouldn't they?
I know that at least one German U-boat was certainly active in our waters, I bought a book recently on it but have not yet read it. But the blurb on the cover stated it was on a secret mission and travelled further than any other U-boat ever to get here.
There has been rumours of a German U-boat firing a torpedo at the Cook Strait ferry (not sure which one) but I've seen even in a documentary on TV this was claimed and it said a navy guy on the ferry's deck saw it and realised it was a torpedo because he'd seen them before. It just missed. However I can't find any evidence of this incident at all. It was probably a dolphin or something.
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Post by shorty on Jun 27, 2009 23:13:14 GMT 12
The U 862 was of the NZ coast and surfaced off Napier and Gisborne. There was a 15 min interview with the captain shown on TV which I have on tape. They couldn't find a target that justified the expenditure of their expensive and scarce torpedoes. They called into Penang when the War in Europe ended and were interned by the Japanese.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 27, 2009 23:33:55 GMT 12
Interned by the Japanese? Were the Germans considered by the Japs to be siding with the Allies after they surrendered?
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Post by Bruce on Jun 27, 2009 23:51:10 GMT 12
Interesting Story... The involvement of Noel Hilliam is of note. Noel is an aircraft homebuilder who has extensively used his Gardan Minicab in the past for shipreck searches on the Northland coast. He is a very accomplished wreck hunter, and has pinpointed several hundred wrecks in the area over the years. He was one of the founders of the Dargaville Museum. Some of his theories regarding pre-Maori populations have got him a bit off side with mainstream historians but generally he has a reputation for reliability.
German crew members could have posed as "Austrians" as there was a huge population of Dalmation gumdiggers in the Northland area, and few "British" Pakehas would be able to tell the difference between Germans and Slavs. Credible story, but it would be good to see some concrete (or steel) evidence.
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Post by alanw on Jun 28, 2009 1:44:16 GMT 12
I would be asking such pertinent questions as to
a) What damage was there (eg hull rupture-evidence
say depth charges/shell holes from attacking ships/aircraft)
b) Are there any military records of RNZN ships/RNZAF aircraft
attacking such a target.
Obviously with the type of news black outs in place
during WWII (knowledge of such a thing would have rattled the populace) there would be some "official record" of said attacks.
Another perspective
If only forty feet of water, may haps it ran aground (perhaps ships
charts were not too accurate) and was scuttled
by crew, I guess if I was ship wrecked I want to disappear too.
Having said that though some Germans during WWII did some
rather "stupid" things that got them noticed very quickly.
There is the case of some Germans who were landed on the
United States west coast to spy. One walked into a small town
store to ask questions, and when approached by the store keeper
the German saluted and said "Sieg heil".... needless to say
the authorities were soon there to apprehend him.
I guess my point is, if there were any ardent Nazi's aboard the
ship it would have become apparent especially in Northland
with the Aryan race bit, and the New Zealand "Natives".
The Nazi regard to "Unter Menchen" (sub humans) as the Nazi's
were prone to call folk not "pure" like them would not have gone down well with anyone up there, the Maori people especially.
That would have led to the authorities being alerted I would think.
(some what speculative I guess, but have to consider all things)
This type of thing makes for a great discussion ;D
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Post by shorty on Jun 28, 2009 8:43:19 GMT 12
I'm not sure without delving deeper but it's to do with warships of non allied countries being in your waters. As the Germans had surrendered they would no longer be considered an ally of the Japanese who were still at war.
Think about the Graf Spee, it had to leave Montevideo in neutral Uruaguay or it would have been interned also.
Thats how we got the Pamir, which was owned by the Finns.
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Post by baz62 on Jun 28, 2009 11:41:32 GMT 12
Jeez Shorty you are a mine(no pun intended) of information! My eyebrows have been raised at this claim but will wait till more experienced researchers see what they turn up.
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Post by shorty on Jun 28, 2009 11:48:39 GMT 12
Jeez Shorty you are a mine(no pun intended) of information! . Comes with the territory when you're an old fart! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 28, 2009 12:49:34 GMT 12
I would be asking such pertinent questions as to a) What damage was there (eg hull rupture-evidence say depth charges/shell holes from attacking ships/aircraft) b) Are there any military records of RNZN ships/RNZAF aircraft attacking such a target. Alan, the chap talking about this U-boat find does state that divers discovered the stern end ruptured by explosions. However the RNZAF and RNZN were not involved, the Germans apparently deliberately scuttled the U-boat. No attacks took place, so no. However unofficially, and yet to be confirmed, I have been given eye witness reports of RNZAF Hudsons attacking submarines off our coast and of other submarine activities taking place which is not yet officially public. One case was told to me by a chap here in Cambridge who was in the Army at the time and they were stationed on hills around Taranaki, around the area of Ratana. He said they were told to watch the coast for lights because the radicals who lived at Ratana were reportedly conacting submarines by signal light and supplying them food, etc. These are the same people that Labour kisses up to before every election by the way. There are many reports of Maori also supplying beef and mutton etc to submarines in Northland. And a chap who was on No. 2 (GR) Squadron told me their squadron sunk a sub off the Taranaki coast but it was hushed up so as not to spook the public. He was groundcrew, but it was after a week of frenetic activity that their CO, Sqn Ldr Jack Busch, gathered the squadron and announced that the reason they'd all been working so hard was they'd been chasing and shadowing a submarine, and that they'd got it. They had a lot of celebrations that night. There are other stories around too. Who knows for sure, much of it may be based on rumour and mistakes, but I suspect more went on than is currently in the history books. |
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Post by alanw on Jun 28, 2009 20:05:52 GMT 12
I would be asking such pertinent questions as to a) What damage was there (eg hull rupture-evidence say depth charges/shell holes from attacking ships/aircraft) b) Are there any military records of RNZN ships/RNZAF aircraft attacking such a target. Alan, the chap talking about this U-boat find does state that divers discovered the stern end ruptured by explosions. However the RNZAF and RNZN were not involved, the Germans apparently deliberately scuttled the U-boat. No attacks took place, so no. However unofficially, and yet to be confirmed, I have been given eye witness reports of RNZAF Hudsons attacking submarines off our coast and of other submarine activities taking place which is not yet officially public. One case was told to me by a chap here in Cambridge who was in the Army at the time and they were stationed on hills around Taranaki, around the area of Ratana. He said they were told to watch the coast for lights because the radicals who lived at Ratana were reportedly conacting submarines by signal light and supplying them food, etc. These are the same people that Labour kisses up to before every election by the way. There are many reports of Maori also supplying beef and mutton etc to submarines in Northland. And a chap who was on No. 2 (GR) Squadron told me their squadron sunk a sub off the Taranaki coast but it was hushed up so as not to spook the public. He was groundcrew, but it was after a week of frenetic activity that their CO, Sqn Ldr Jack Busch, gathered the squadron and announced that the reason they'd all been working so hard was they'd been chasing and shadowing a submarine, and that they'd got it. They had a lot of celebrations that night. There are other stories around too. Who knows for sure, much of it may be based on rumour and mistakes, but I suspect more went on than is currently in the history books. Hi Dave Thanks for that info- this is really a fascinating subject! I guess in my mind that the divers found the stern ruptured by explosians, then brings up another question as to Why? Generally (to my knowledge any way) when U boats were scuttled at sea the crew opened the sea cocks and let the sea do the rest. I wonder if there was some secret on board that the crew didn't want found (like an enigma machine -no I haven't been watching too much U 571 ;D) very intriguing I guess that the comment on the crew "going to ground" would have merit if they had sympathizers in Northland, and any ardent Nazi would not have a worry about being exposed. I knew that during WWII, German raiders and the like were in New Zealand waters, but your comments make me see that: a) Many Kiwi's don't realize that we perhaps were not so much a back water place as we might think. b) That during WWII, there was a fair amount of activity going on behind the scenes (good or bad) that probably never will be main steam public knowledge. I thoroughly enjoy this type of New Zealand real mystery ;D ;D it really makes me appreciate the history of this country. On a another tangent I wonder if there are any thoughts as to salvaging the U boat and placing it in museum? Regards Alan |
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Post by fletcherfu24 on Jun 28, 2009 20:52:57 GMT 12
You would wonder why a submarine would try and drop people of on the wild west side of the North Island,when logic would suggest somewhere nice and calm and remote like the Bay of Islands would make a better landing place?.
Even in 1945 a bunch of Germans wandering wartime Northland would have stood out like the proverbials.
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Post by shorty on Jun 28, 2009 21:31:46 GMT 12
Right I just watched the TV clip again (from a TV1 Close Up item). The guy is Dan Nash, whose grandfather (also called Dan Nash) is reputed to have helped a Nazi war criminal, his mistress and three children flee to NZ in 1943. The party,and cargo were off loaded and the U boat scuttled the crew "dissapating into the local community, as you do, several passing themselves off as Austrians" The cargo was buried in a forest area near Dargaville. Did I mention the cargo consisted of mandatory gold bars, jewellery and valuable paintings? This Dan Nash guy even bought a house because he thought it contained a map showing where the cargo was buried.
He ripped the wall out of the bathroom looking for it.
A couple of questions spring to mind. 1943 the Germans still thought they could win so what made the "escapee" think he was a war criminal and had to flee?
In 1943 could the Kreigsmarine afford to scuttle a U-Boat. Why not use a dinghy to put people and stuff ashore and then be on their way to do what U Boats do best?
Austrians were "enemy aliens" and were rounded up and interned at places like Somes Island so surely a group of them appearing would make some people suspicious and mention it to the authorities, especially people who had kinfolk fighting in the NZEF.
Where are the crew and their descendants now? The whole lot couldn't keep a secret that big for this long. Someone would have talked.
BTW apparently there are about 55 U Boats still missing.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 28, 2009 22:11:39 GMT 12
Alan, there was definately a lot more going on around NZ in WWII than the public ever heard about. That goes for postwar with Russian and other Communist submarines and vessels too. We are not in the benign, isolated, safe little pocket of the world that muppets like H. Clark like to think. Just because our navy can't do these things doesn't mean other's can't.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 28, 2009 22:18:50 GMT 12
Shorty, it all sounds very fishy (excuse the nautical pun). I had wondered about the Austrian thing too, one mention of being from Austria and the whole district would be down on them with suspicion. I am beginning to think this whole story may be a crock.
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Post by shorty on Jun 28, 2009 22:31:55 GMT 12
Could you imagine the "Nazi War Criminal" popping down to Berchtesgarten and saying" Adolph old mate, if we lose I might be in a spot of bother, you got a spare U-Boat I can have to slope off to the South Pacific in and see my old mate Dan? Thought I might take My bit of stray and the sprogs too if that OK? Oh, I'll just grab some spare gold and loot too.Ta muchly old chum"
I don't think so!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 28, 2009 22:51:57 GMT 12
I suppose there is the slimmest possibility that these people were considered criminals BY the Nazis, maybe they were escaping because they'd plotted against Hitler, and the U-boat was scuttled so the Nazis didn't get their hands back on it. Still not plausible though.
Maybe they were sent to spy on NZ too, but then spies never scuttled their transport.
it seems odd that a submarine would land there where we had a couple of crack general reconnaissance squadrons and a large chunk of the army patrolling for subs every day. Why not the South Island's remote unwatched coast.
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Post by fletcherfu24 on Jun 28, 2009 23:04:18 GMT 12
To escape Germany in 1943 you would go to Switzerland,Spain or Sweden,you'd hardly flog a U boat and sail to Dargaville.
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Post by shorty on Jun 28, 2009 23:06:19 GMT 12
I wouldn't even pinch a Lada to go to Dargaville!
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