Air Force fighter pilots from Singapore

[Parrotfish]

Seems all to be viewed favourably, but very early in the negotiations. Out in general public domain now so...

Cheers

"Updated at 6:56am on 7 January 2010

Air Force fighter pilots from Singapore may be trained in New Zealand in the future under a deal being negotiated with global defence contractor Lockheed Martin.

The Government has confirmed to Radio New Zealand that officials are actively involved in promoting the plan.

Economic Development Minister Gerry Brownlee says Lockheed Martin currently trains Singaporean pilots in France and has to renew its contract before it can confirm a New Zealand operation.

"There is a prospect that some of their pilot training may come to New Zealand, but it's very early days at this point .... We do have some facilities here that would make that a possibility, and I think that would be very good for the New Zealand Air Force as well as for the strengthening of our defence relationships."

Mr Brownlee says he hopes a deal will be struck in the first quarter of this year.

Radio New Zealand understands Ohakea Air Force base in the Manawatu is being considered as the main training base, with a back-up runway at Whenuapai in west Auckland.

The potential deal is being welcomed by the regions' mayors and defence analysts, who say it as a positive step towards New Zealand taking a more active role in regional defence.

Palmerston North Mayor Jono Naylor says the Defence Force is a major contributor to the Manawatu region and he is enthusiastic about the prospect.

Waitakere City Mayor Bob Harvey says involving Whenuapai in the deal has the potential to benefit greater Auckland.

Copyright © 2010 Radio New Zealand"
www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/01/07/1247ebbdc866

[oldnavy]

Gob smacking! Seriously, what will the forum be called when the new owners take charge? Indeed, will you be allowed to stay in your houses if you have sold out your country...and did you all get the NZ$1 million I suggested you to ask for?

[obiwan27]

Mate, that is way over the top, take a chill pill. Obviously people here take a different view to our cousins across the ditch. It's not like we don't have a history of close defence ties with Singapore and it is still only a prospect, subject to discussions between NZ and Singapore Governments plus decisions to be made by Lockheed Martin and the RSAF. If you are up on current events Hillary Clinton is popping by NZ for a couple of days on the way to Aus. No doubt defence matters will be on the table for discussion, not necessarily this issue but NZ would hardly be visited by such a top ranking US official in only the 2nd year of a new administration if it wasn't seen to be pulling its weight in international matters regionally or otherwise. My ten cents worth.

[skyhawkdon]

There was a short piece on 3 News tonight about it too. Dave - now that this is public can the original thread on this be unquarantined?

[Dave Homewood]

Hi Don, I'll venture into the back shed and see where I put it. Hang on..... ahh, here it is

rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar&action=display&thread=10563&page=6

[oldnavy]

Mate, that is way over the top, take a chill pill.

obiwan27, Okay, I'll take a chill pill. You need to go back through the other threads and see what my view on this kind of thing is. It's not about Singapore, it could be any country bringing stuff in.

This however, is all about New Zealand.

As a former fighter pilot, I can only say that despite pseudo-nationalistic jingoism, and an apparent token interest in Defence, without fighter/attack aircraft New Zealand is without its most important Defence insurance. The last thing a country so exposed should do is bring in someone else's assets without some form of strict controls and guarantees. If New Zealand can't afford its own jets, and they have absolutely no existing national air defence capability, then they are not in a position to impose any controls or ask for any guarantees.

With the best will in the world, this current discussion is about a totally independent force within your borders which will bring very little financial benefit to the local communities, and for which you have nothing to balance...or indeed counter (should the need arise in an unforeseen future scenario.)

I believe, as Singapore is indeed such a good friend and ally to New Zealand, they will reject this fiasco out of hand because it will create too many problems for them.

Good luck with the Hillary visit! I am sure it is a very important statement.

[skyhawkdon]

Yes Singapore is only doing what is in its interests here (and why wouldn't they!), but what is being proposed is only a lead-in-fighter training contract, so they aren't going to be putting a F-16 Squadron here (not that I would have a problem with that either!).

I disagree that the economic benefits to NZ or the local community from it will be insignificant. That is one of the attractive features of the proposal from NZ's perspective. People have to eat and live somewhere, the aircraft will burn fuel which has to be paid for. The economic benefits will be significant to NZ.

While it would be better if it was a Squadron of our own jets being reformed, I can't see that happening. To my mind this is the next best thing. It will at least put fast jets and the sound of freedom back in the publics eye (and ears!).

[Dave Homewood]

Perhaps the current Government talks with Lockheed and Hilary Clinton might result in another sweet fighter deal being struck between the USA and NZ? Defence commitments is definately on the Clinton agenda when she comes here.

[oldnavy]

Yes Singapore is only doing what is in its interests here (and why wouldn't they!), but what is being proposed is only a lead-in-fighter training contract, so they aren't going to be putting a F-16 Squadron here (not that I would have a problem with that either!).

I disagree that the economic benefits to NZ or the local community from it will be insignificant. That is one of the attractive features of the proposal from NZ's perspective. People have to eat and live somewhere, the aircraft will burn fuel which has to be paid for. The economic benefits will be significant to NZ.

While it would be better if it was a Squadron of our own jets being reformed, I can't see that happening. To my mind this is the next best thing. It will at least put fast jets and the sound of freedom back in the publics eye (and ears!).

I am overwhelmed by this view from one whom I respect so much. If this is what you all think is important then I will desist from further comment.

Just as an aside and as a final point on this topic, every lead in fighter I have seen can go fast, carry weapons and perform the missions of a multi-role fighter. That is something no-one in NZ can do at present, and you folk politely tell me "I can't see that happening" to the question of whether you could get your own jets. Your existing military has nothing that can stop anyone with a fast jet fighter/attack capability from doing it in NZ if they so wished. The flawed reason for not having fast jets yourself is that you are far from any potential threat. What kind of thinking makes it alright to bring in a foreign yet home based threat outside your control? Luckily for you, Singapore will do the right thing...

[ostinato]

Theres three points i'd like to raise on this topic:

Threat to NZL:
Some valid points you raise there OldNavy, however the threat of that happening to NZL is practically zero, far less than some idiot hi-jacking an airliner in NZL. Did we consider this happening.. probably... can we do anything about that now? No.. So right now we're screwed either way.. But..
Would we be able to do counter this more realistic threat, a hijacked aircraft over NZ. If singapore had armed supersonic jets in NZL... yes (Political and moral issues aside) alot better than we can currently. So the more likely threat we in NZ face from the air above us is by far reduced.

Reinstating a Fighter Wing to the RNZAF
This is probably the most likely way NZL could reinstate a figher capability.
If this goes ahead, years after the singapore program is established and we eventually have some more money in the pocket (eventually... yes that may be some time) there is a far greater chance of us chucking some lads through the program and maybe leasing some aircraft than the RNZAF starting from scratch. So long as we used the T-50, alot of the issues with intoducing a figher from scratch would be eliminated or greatly assisted. Engineering and technical support is in NZ, logistical support is in NZ, fast jet know-how and a training program, all you need is some aircraft (maybe lease them) and some men to fly it (assuming singapore would let us tie in with their training).

Defence and Economic Benefit to NZL:
Great news, it can also help train the NZL Navy and Army. Closer ties with our military neighbours. Economic benefits are there too, list goes on.

[timmo]

Jan 8, 2010 9:24:14 GMT 12 skyhawkdon said:

To my mind this is the next best thing. It will at least put fast jets and the sound of freedom back in the publics eye (and ears!).

Can't say I agree that having foreign forces on your soil is the sound of Freedom...much as I'd love to hear them.

[baz62]

Lots of countries train in other countries. Australia even trains Singapore pilots. And Singapore has units based in France AND the US I might add. I think this will benefit NZ so go for it. And would we be arguing about this if it was say the UK or Australian unit wanting to do this? Doubt it.

[obiwan27]

Jan 8, 2010 15:53:39 GMT 12 baz62 said:

And would we be arguing about this if it was say the UK or Australian unit wanting to do this? Doubt it.

Quite right Baz!!! In fact we do have a history of training SEA Air Force pilots both from Singapore and Malaysia. I well remember meeting one guy from each country at Wigram both of whom graduated on my mate's Wings Course back in 1983. I think we need to keep things in perspective and remember that it is a lead-in to eventual posting to an operational squadron, something like used to happen with the 14 Squadron Bluntys and Maachis? For another perspective on Singapore's pilot training and units based overseas I submit the following article from the 'Straits Times of November 21st, 2009.







I also made mention of this article under the original 'F16s for Ohakea thread with accompnaying video here:

rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar&action=display&thread=10563&page=2

Enjoy.

[Kenny]

Not really aviation related but their FH200 155s are here... and i think our guys have the 12 second burst rate record on em.. point being we trained with them without actualy owning them - win win situation for both defence forces.

Is having their pilots train here not the same? I see nothing but benefits for everyone invloved.. except of course any Nimbys who dont like noisy thingies flying around

[Dave Homewood]

Training on equipment you do not own may sound all very well on paper, but if push comes to shove and your well trained Defence Force is suddenly needed in real action, but they don't have any actual equipment, the training is worthless.

[30sqnatc]

I guess this is a practical example of the new defence cooperation arrangement
www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/news/2009/May/27may09_news.html

[baz62]

Yes but surely we would be getting some of the basic infrastructure back in place so we could reinstate what we all would like, our own combat force? Anyway its early days yet we will have to wait and see if it happens and what shape it will take. Then we can shoot holes in it. ;D

[oldnavy]

Lots of countries train in other countries. Australia even trains Singapore pilots. And Singapore has units based in France AND the US I might add. I think this will benefit NZ so go for it. And would we be arguing about this if it was say the UK or Australian unit wanting to do this? Doubt it.

Sorry everyone. I said I wouldn't say any more. But I simply have to respond. Lots of countries do train in other countries. All those "other countries" have equivalent or bigger forces than the visiting country.

An important factor being glossed over here is that "Australia, France AND the US" do not "train" Singapore. Singapore trains Singapore. There is no suggestion in any of the news articles you guys are posting which says Singapore will let you near any of their assets. Indeed, if they are anything like everywhere else, you will specifically be excluded.

My point applies to any visiting country wanting to fly fighters in your territory. I have said before, be proud, stand tall and buy your own capability. If you can't do that, get a deal going with someone who will help offset your costs, employ your pilots and maintainers, and provide you with some defence benefit.

In the case you are getting excited about, you are indulging in a wholesale sell out to pure commercial interests which will lead to a loss of sovereignty. IE: You will no longer have a sovereign right to your own airspace. It will be the sole domain of a foreign power...because there is absolutely nothing you can do to control it.

That is unless you can convince the RSAF to train your people too. And you will have to pay for that...are you all really that lousy to think you can't afford it?

[obiwan27]

Until something is agreed to by the respective governments plus Lockheed Martin etc then this whole discussion is pretty much pie in the sky stuff regardless of what anyone's perspective is. The whole thing may come to naught. If it does come to something and we know exactly what the details are then perhaps we can debate the relative merits or otherwise of the agreement/arrangement.

[lumpy]

Im with oldnavy , I do see the positives , but dont really want to see jets flying overhead and think to myself " what would happen if --- "( because if they arent ours , we really dont know )