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Post by raymond on Jun 12, 2011 0:17:59 GMT 12
Hi All this is quite an emotive topic and I could ramble on for ages about it.
As a baggie I though that Base Parades were a major pain in the butt put on so a bunch of officers could watch it all. There seamed to be no other reason. However I was involved in a parade for the 50th Ann of the Auckland War Museum which I thought was cool even though we practiced for a week. In addition the parades we did a couple of times up Queen St in Auckland was good too.
The major difference was that these parades were in the public eye!!
Later I was in a Sqn Standard party, now that was cool! Seeing the Standard up close with the battle honours on it. What the RNZAF does not do virtually at all is display its history where the "troops" can easily see it. One finds history only in HQ's & not many baggies go there.
No wonder the Queens colour has little meaning, who gets to have a close look at it? I have managed to inspect it closley but only as it was kept in my units safe and I had to go in there a few times. Yeah sneek peeks.
However at a time where Jobs are on the line it does seam pointless to be spending a lot of time and effort to ahve a base parade
Now Poms....My Dad is a Pom, Im sure my sister is now one (she lives there and is married to one) My daughter is over "there". I have many pommy mates and we had work mates called Pom. Yes it has at times been used in a negative manner but it is also a common term and is used in a general manner. Oh yes ill be there in a couple of weeks but then Im only a Kiwi...
my 2 cents
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 12, 2011 1:13:17 GMT 12
I have to say that i think the use of the word Pom by kiwis is often misconstrued by the British. I think it is because the Australians seem to use the word in a more vicious, racist fashion a lot of the time, and they are entitled because they did invent the word.
But here in NZ it's a term of endearment that simply means a person from Britain, just like a kiwi is a person from New Zealand, or a Yank is a person from America. As I live in Cambridge I know a lot of poms - it is an English enclave here. Most of my closest mates are poms, one of them is universally known by the nickname Pom and my best mate in the world is a pom. They are of course all ex-pats now as they all saw the light and moved the the greatest little town in God's Own Country. I was in my mate's garage bar last Friday, there were several of us there and someone mentioned how great NZ was and how many there had moved to this fair nation. A count was done and there was one girl from Asia, a bloke from Canada and two kiwis, me being one. All the rest were Poms. They were all calling themselves "poms" as the count went round the room. It's a mere term, it's not meant as an insult like it is across the ditch and those poms who live here soon realise this.
In fact the first time i ever had an argument with my best mate was when I called him a pom, and he reacted very beligerantly as if I'd called him a c*nt. I explained the situation here (he like many English had been on the rough end of abuse while in Aussie with that word). We got over it and still laugh about it.
So dumbas I really do not think furd meant any harm or slant on you personally with the term.
This reminds me of something I saw on TV recently where some politically correct wench told someone off for saying Chinaman. Apparently that word is now taboo. Now that I know that I like to use it much more. It's no different from Englishman, Dutchman, etc. Bugger them all, hose PC people and their warped views.
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dumbas
Flight Sergeant
Posts: 24
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Post by dumbas on Jun 12, 2011 2:37:05 GMT 12
Dave and others,
I think you may be a bit sprung loaded. I took no offence at the word "Pom"', indeed I took no offence at furd's post at all. I found furd's post intriguing in that he claimed NZ was an egalitarian society, yet because he thought I hailed from a certain country he felt my views could be dismissed out of hand; hardly egalitarian!
Back on thread, good wholesome debate and accept that it is something you buy into or not.
Totally off thread, I will continue to lurk until someone reopens the thread about what Guy Gibson's dog will be called in the Dambuster's movie remake, now that writer Stephen Fry has stated in a recent interview that it will be called "Digger".
Oops.. Edited to change the new name of s.nigger. I got it wrong, just like Mr Fry has.
Lurk mode <on>
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Post by McFly on Jun 12, 2011 16:24:55 GMT 12
It has been interesting watching the ebb and flow of this thread from the sidelines, and the seemingly polar opposite opinions regarding the value of parading the ‘Colours’ in these fiscally strained times vs. what the Colours mean with respect to traditions, loyalty and values etc. The current Air Force actually parades far less and in smaller numbers then ever before, and this is as a direct result of a deliberate refocus and re-prioritising of ceremonial parades in balance to primary outputs. Nevertheless, of the few ceremonial parades that have remained on the ‘essential’ list and not the ‘desirable’ one is the ‘Queens Colour’ parade for the very reasons discussed elsewhere in this thread. Typically parade practices these days may be in the morning prior to the afternoon parade as opposed to the preceding three days with multiple rehearsals as in the past. Everyone seems to dig deep into their drill training and generally pulls it off on the day with only the minimum of rehearsals under their belt. In addition, most bases maintain an expanded roster of ‘Quarter Guard’ personnel to deal with the majority of smaller ceremonial events, thereby unburdening base pers from the wider parade requirements. Some photos of the latest ‘Queens Colour’ parade held ah Ohakea for the forum members to see what all the fuss is about. (RNZAF Official) A short history lesson on the RNZAF’s Queens Colour.- Ref NZAP 818 The Queen’s Colour of the Royal New Zealand Air ForceThe Queens Colour is a ceremonial flag symbolising honour, loyalty and service. The origins of Colours date back to the earliest days of history. When going to war the badge or sign of the tribal chief was placed on a pole and carried so it could be seen from afar. Eventually the more victorious tribes came to look at the badges as safe guards in battle. The badges were the forerunners to our present day military Colours. While Colours have not been carried in action since 1881, they have always been regarded as the symbol of the spirit of a regiment or squadron. Award of the Queen’s Colour. There are no special circumstances governing the granting of the Queen’s Colour. It is awarded by the Sovereign in recognition of Service achievement, and is presented personally by the Sovereign or by a personage nominated to act on the Sovereign’s behalf. During the 1953−54 Royal Tour of NZ Queen Elizabeth II personally presented her Colour to the RNZAF. The presentation was made at RNZAF Station Whenuapai during a ceremonial parade on 28 December 1953. Six hundred RNZAF personnel took part, and besides the invited guests thousands of onlookers watched the ceremony. When presenting the Colour the Queen gave the following address:‘Air Vice-Marshal Carnegie, Officers, Airmen, and Airwomen of the Royal New Zealand Air Force: I am very happy to be here today to present to you my Colour. I congratulate you on your fine display of drill and on the excellence of your dress and bearing. This day will always be a memorable one for me, for it is my first visit to my New Zealand Air Force.
But if I have never before had the pleasure and privilege of meeting you in your own homeland I have heard much of your valour in war and of your skill and enterprise at all times. And I know of the fine traditions that have been so firmly laid by your predecessors and by you yourselves.
I have not been disappointed by what I have seen today. Rather I have been filled with pride, and with the conviction that you will go on to create an even finer tradition on these foundations. I give you my Colour in the knowledge that you will guard it well; in the belief that it will always remind you of the trust I place in my Royal New Zealand Air Force.
During your future service you will, I know, be always worthy of that trust and will always strive to maintain the high and honourable standards of which this Colour is a symbol.'Air Vice-Marshal D.V. Carnegie, CB, CBE, AFC, RAF, the Chief of Air Staff replied:‘Your Majesty: Your gracious presentation of the Queen’s Colour to the Royal New Zealand Air Force is an historic and inspiring occasion.
Historic, because it is the first time in which Your Majesty has visited a station of the Royal New Zealand Air Force and because this is the first Queen’s Colour that has been presented to the Service − and inspiring, because it shows your confidence in this which is probably one of the youngest of Your Majesty’s Air Forces.
Your Colour will ever be a symbol of inspiration to the Royal New Zealand Air Force; of pride to those who have served in its ranks, and of remembrance of those who have been called to higher service. − Your Majesty’
Perhaps it is best summed up in the following: ‘The flag is a symbol, intrinsically valueless − extrinsically priceless’, said Andrew Ross in ‘Old Scottish Colours’, and Sir Edward Hamley expressed much the same sentiment in the following lines: ‘A moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole, It does not look likely to stir, a man’s soul; ‘Tis the deeds that were done ‘neath the moth-eaten rag, When the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag.’
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 12, 2011 18:43:16 GMT 12
Many thanks for that Marty, I appreciate that and it is good to hear that parades have been minimised to cut down on the costs.
In this thread I meant no disrespect to the RNZAF or the Colours at all, just voicing an opinion and it seems that from what you say that opinion has been partially shared by the RNZAf and they have done something about it. Good to see.
I always notice these days how many medals the NZDF people have too, in my days other than the Long Service and Good Conduct medal, seeing medals worn on currently serving staff was rare indeed. Now there's loads of them. Good to see.
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Post by classicman on Jun 13, 2011 1:02:41 GMT 12
Taking the 42 Squadron Standard out for a walk - doesn't everyone love a good parade??!
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Post by ox on Jun 13, 2011 1:37:34 GMT 12
Did the Queen's Guard of Honour in Christchurch in I guess 1990ish with the Queen's Colour, only parade i actually enjoyed (ish) when I was in the mob
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Post by chewy on Jun 13, 2011 20:36:00 GMT 12
Oh the joy of guarding the Queen's Colour at the Ohakea Officer's mess. Makes for a long night watching people having a good time while you have stand there. At least i got a good feed at the end of it.
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Post by oggie2620 on Jun 14, 2011 6:52:02 GMT 12
Just a thought. I watched Trooping the Colour the other day. They interviewed some of the lads who were going on parade. The younger ones especially seemed proud as punch to be on parade. Yes its much better to do it front of the public but leaving it in a vault or hanging from in church (as 75s poor standard is doing and no depreciation of the church its a lovely little place) seems a shame. Our colours & standards are paraded at every opportunity we can get as we are proud of them. I do understand your points about the money but since the guys are paid 24/7 and 365 days a year over here (is it the same in NZ?) it aint costing any more money that it would anyway. Ref the pom comment thanks for the explanation. I dont think most Aussies use it as a derogatory form either its just some people but aint that the same all over the world. We Poms love you Kiwis! Dee
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2011 8:20:08 GMT 12
The RNZAF also pays its military staff 24 hours 365 days a year.
It's not the hourly rate I was referrign to but the manhours wasted. When you see cutbacks to aircraft flying hours, to staffing levels and to wholes squadrons and bases over the past years and the continued talk talk talk from the top of the need to tighten the belts and be more efficient, such frivilous acts as parades just seem a pointless waste of time, energy and money to me.
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Post by shorty on Jun 14, 2011 10:41:03 GMT 12
Without "frivolous acts" like parades it just becomes another Aero Club, perhaps more so since it has lost its combat capability. Add to that that there is (was?) a service allowance as part of the pay rate to compensate for the exigencies of service life including learning drill, carrying arms, discipline and doing parades. Since your brief time in the Air Force they have also gone to leasing aircraft so they don't even have to service a lot of them now. Add up some time how many aircraft they now own (as opposed to lease), you can deduct the hueys as they are being phased out soon. The number ends up less than some private concerns and is downright scary. Might as well contract out the whole defence of our freedoms (or the few we have left).
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 14, 2011 11:20:45 GMT 12
You have just made my point, thanks Shorty. They have cut all the wrong things and have ended up with bugger all Air Force left, and continued to practice the things that really do not matter towards an operational service.
Parades were originally invented in the military so the officers could count their men on a daily basis and see how many were drunk, awol or completely buggered off. Is that really necessary nowadays? I flipping well hope not.
I do partially agree with some of the comments here about public parades, in front of the rest of the world. They do 'show the flag' as it were. I did a Charter Parade in Christchurch and the reaction of the public to see their Air Force on display was great, and it was the only good Wing Parade because there was no practice needed. But again it's a lot of wasted manhours and I think airshow appearances by aircraft are far better PR than 250 airmen and WAAF's marching up a street clogging traffic.
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Post by lesterpk on Jun 14, 2011 17:49:38 GMT 12
As I 3pm today I officially dont care either way, my 717 landed on the bosses desk and we are off to Perth in a couple of months.
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Post by Officer Crabtree on Jun 14, 2011 18:09:10 GMT 12
The problem with getting the things that DO matter back is that people nowadays don't think we have a need for it which is true in some ways. But just because we are tucked away down here it doesn't mean nothing will happen to us, and if war did break out I don't know if we could count on Australia as I imagine they would have their own problems.
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Post by McFly on Jun 14, 2011 20:23:10 GMT 12
Ahhhhh... a good looking bunch of guys and gals parading the 5 & 40 (& 3) Squadron Standards during the RNZAF 60th Anniversary parade up (and down) Queen St, Auckland - April 97. "It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather, we should thank God that such men lived."— George S. Patton Jr. "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."— G.K. Chesterton
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 15, 2011 15:05:57 GMT 12
As I 3pm today I officially dont care either way, my 717 landed on the bosses desk and we are off to Perth in a couple of months. Good luck Les! Is it working for the RAAF or a private outfit?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2011 15:57:06 GMT 12
Best of luck Les.
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Post by beagle on Jun 15, 2011 16:06:19 GMT 12
spot mr McFly
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Post by lesterpk on Jun 15, 2011 23:02:47 GMT 12
For Bristow Helicopters. They are bringing some maintenance in house, I'll be doing the liferafts and jackets and a few other odd jobs for them. Near double pay of what I am on now as a 'valued' serviceman.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2011 0:37:47 GMT 12
We'll miss you at forum meets Les but hopefully the internet stretches to Perth and you'll remain a valued member here still.
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