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Post by foxcover on Feb 15, 2018 0:26:37 GMT 12
So reading around, I think the A400 is going thru too much upheavel at present to be a direct replacement for the C130H. If everything turns out ok and they manage to get more orders, highly unlikely, then it could come in play for the strategic role, but that's a few years away yet. So sadly it looks like it could be just new J model herks at this stage. Why not 3-4 C295 to relieve the Hercs until 3 A400 come?
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Post by exkiwiforces on Feb 15, 2018 0:40:25 GMT 12
So reading around, I think the A400 is going thru too much upheavel at present to be a direct replacement for the C130H. If everything turns out ok and they manage to get more orders, highly unlikely, then it could come in play for the strategic role, but that's a few years away yet. So sadly it looks like it could be just new J model herks at this stage. Why not 3-4 C295 to relieve the Hercs until 3 A400 come? As I've said over on P3 replacement, since the TPP mk2 has come out I wouldn't be surprise if the MOD/ MFAT and RNZAF go to the Japs and ask for a job lot for 8 C-2's and say 6-8 P-1's just to throw that out and possible some smaller size Short Range Tactical Airlifter if there no increase to the NH-90's? As doing a job lot with the Japs will come with some benefits, will be cheaper possibly in the long term and from MFAT POV it will show that NZ is fair dinkum IRT the TPP.
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Post by saratoga on Feb 15, 2018 16:36:30 GMT 12
I think with the current govt. coagulation,the main criteria will be which airframe provides the most emergency housing. Ahh,so finally we could have utilised C-17.. At least if we buy Japanese it'll be right hand drive..
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Post by isc on Feb 15, 2018 22:07:33 GMT 12
Sounds as though the old Hercs are doing some work at the moment, I think a couple of them have been up to Tonga with cyclone relief supplies. isc
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Post by beagle on Feb 16, 2018 5:19:17 GMT 12
And if it had been a C17 purchased a few years ago, then we would have had a NH90 up there helping
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Post by noooby on Feb 16, 2018 9:42:58 GMT 12
Put Aux tanks on the NH-90 and it can get there itself if it island hops! Just like the good old Andover
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Post by ErrolC on Feb 16, 2018 10:25:31 GMT 12
How long is the required service at the end of doing that?
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Post by madmac on Feb 16, 2018 12:09:03 GMT 12
And if it had been a C17 purchased a few years ago, then we would have had a NH90 up there helping Or if we brought helicopters that fitted in the C130 Or if we brought light helicopters that had a decent payload capacity Or if we were part of a joint naval task force that spent the season in the islands for just for cyclone relief. So on & so forth.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Feb 16, 2018 13:43:14 GMT 12
And if it had been a C17 purchased a few years ago, then we would have had a NH90 up there helping Or if we brought helicopters that fitted in the C130 Or if we brought light helicopters that had a decent payload capacity Or if we were part of a joint naval task force that spent the season in the islands for just for cyclone relief. So on & so forth. How about developing a Purple (Joint Force) Base at or near Nadi Airport as the Pacific Patrol Boat Program is base at the nearby Port, it can be use for HADR missions, Fisheries Patrols (both Air and Sea), Joint Forces Ex's and a base for the South Pacific Mutual Aid Program (MAP)?
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Post by horicle on Feb 16, 2018 15:32:40 GMT 12
I see the RNZAF fleet shopping list beginning to look do-able. Here is my take. I have made a few eliminations and dropped the A400 and Kawasaki P-1 for the moment. The A400 because I think the Turboprop heavy lifter has become an evolutionary dead end. The modern high bypass jet has become as good as the prop job at low speed and definitely cruises better, all without the cost and and weight of gearboxes and props. Just accept that. The P-1 only goes out because the Global 6000 options keep the number of types down while keeping a good mix of roles and capabilities. The dollar values are the fly away costs Wikipedia quotes per aircraft. Then I will add the extras.
Apologies for mixing threads but I think it all fits together.
2 Kawasaki C-2 - Solves the heavy lift problem (US$272M) 4 C-230J - Replaces the bulk of the current freighter fleet (US$640M) 6 Bombardier 6000 - 2 for Strategic, VIP, and show the flag transport missions (US$121M) - 4 as SAAB Swordfish deep water MPA (US$1000M). There is no quoted cost for a Swordfish yet. But when United Arab Emirates ordered an extra one (No. 3) of SAAB’s 6000 based GlobalEye Swing Role Surveillance Systems which has 70% commonality with Swordfish the cost of that aircraft was US$238M. 8 C295 -4 in Persuader configuration for Littoral MPA (US$240M) -4 for light Tactical Transport role (US$120M) and just for the serious fun of being able to set up to do real Air Force work 4 Textron Scorpion with two recon packs and two Interdiction role packs. (US$80M, does not include the role packs). This fleet will grow with time.
All that for the fly-away airframes (Wikipedia’s costings) comes to US$2.473Billion. Add 50% as a start figure for setting up, training, etc and we have US$3.7B required over 10 years (2020 to 2030). I must have a talk to Ron, Winston and Jacinda. Does not use much out of the NZ$20B that is supposed to available.
It is a pity about all those factors that mean it is just a dream.
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Post by madmac on Feb 16, 2018 21:54:57 GMT 12
How about developing a Purple (Joint Force) Base at or near Nadi Airport as the Pacific Patrol Boat Program is base at the nearby Port, it can be use for HADR missions, Fisheries Patrols (both Air and Sea), Joint Forces Ex's and a base for the South Pacific Mutual Aid Program (MAP)? We could also get a number of US-2s and fit some of them out as flying clinics. Staff it with some form of high tempo TAF drawn specifically from the islands (providing local cash flow with limited loss of man power) creating a NZDF funded mutli national force capable of solving their local own problems with out the inter island scrapping that seems to occur. But that would requiring the welding military/civil goals and methods which seems to be a specific weakness of western military culture at the moment.
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Post by saratoga on Feb 16, 2018 22:35:55 GMT 12
Jeez, yous guys are spending money faster than a politicians pre-election promises.
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Post by noooby on Feb 17, 2018 9:23:44 GMT 12
How long is the required service at the end of doing that? Why would there be a required service? Depends on the length of the ferry and where the helicopter is in it's maintenance cycle. Same with all helicopters. Even civil helicopters need inspections! Some as low as every 25 hours. Nothing unusual there. UH-1 was also 25 hours between maintenance.
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Post by noooby on Feb 17, 2018 9:27:42 GMT 12
And if it had been a C17 purchased a few years ago, then we would have had a NH90 up there helping Or if we brought helicopters that fitted in the C130 Or if we brought light helicopters that had a decent payload capacity Or if we were part of a joint naval task force that spent the season in the islands for just for cyclone relief. So on & so forth. Helicopters that fit in a 130 either have no load capacity, or have other inherent issues with being made to fit inside a 60 year old transport aircraft (Blackhawk family for one). Light helicopters and good payload capacity are mutually exclusive. Can't be done. To carry good payload, you need power. To use the power you need a strong (read, heavy) transmission. To go any distance and to feed the powerful engine, you need lots of fuel. Suddenly you're not a light helicopter anymore. I do like your third option though! Exercise Tropic combined with cyclone relief as they happen. Brilliant!
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Post by ErrolC on Feb 17, 2018 14:31:06 GMT 12
How long is the required service at the end of doing that? Why would there be a required service? Depends on the length of the ferry and where the helicopter is in it's maintenance cycle. Same with all helicopters. Even civil helicopters need inspections! Some as low as every 25 hours. Nothing unusual there. UH-1 was also 25 hours between maintenance. It's a significant difference compared with putting them in a C-17 or whatever. It's an option that takes longer and makes them less useful in the fairly short term, which is often when they are most helpful.
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Post by madmac on Feb 17, 2018 20:54:03 GMT 12
Light helicopters and good payload capacity are mutually exclusive. Can't be done. To carry good payload, you need power. To use the power you need a strong (read, heavy) transmission. To go any distance and to feed the powerful engine, you need lots of fuel. Suddenly you're not a light helicopter anymore. If you fit your light helos to have anti-ice, retracts and all sorts of other shiny whizz bang stuff it certainly is true. I guess you haven't seen the paper observing that western helos become less cost effective the bigger they are due to excessive focus on weight reduction (which explains the user spread on large helos).
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Post by noooby on Feb 18, 2018 17:20:19 GMT 12
Light helicopters and good payload capacity are mutually exclusive. Can't be done. To carry good payload, you need power. To use the power you need a strong (read, heavy) transmission. To go any distance and to feed the powerful engine, you need lots of fuel. Suddenly you're not a light helicopter anymore. If you fit your light helos to have anti-ice, retracts and all sorts of other shiny whizz bang stuff it certainly is true. I guess you haven't seen the paper observing that western helos become less cost effective the bigger they are due to excessive focus on weight reduction (which explains the user spread on large helos). The lightest certified helo in the western world with anti-ice has a take off weight of 6800kg. That isn't a light helicopter. That is a heavy medium. What are you defining as a light helo? Although we are working on putting an anti ice system into a 4600kg machine, but it won't be easy. Anti ice for instance is incredibly complex. The system that I am extremely familiar with and don't really want to be, weighs just shy of 500 pounds. Take two AC Generators, rectify them to high voltage DC, then feed that to 5 main rotor blades, with each blade have 6 heater mats that are programed to activate for a different duration depending on the liquid content in the air and the temperature. Then also feed that power back to the 4 tail rotor blades, although they are just on all the time as the blades are too small to put multiple mats in. Then tie in windshield anti ice to the system, ice accretion protection for the engines and airframe air inlets. Weight weight weight. All adds up. Funny thing is, the biggest helo I've worked on (S-64 Skycrane) is the most cost effective when you think $/lb of payload! Weight reduction is a factor with the design of all helicopters. Look at the Bell 505 with the steel tube frame. Lightest way they could do it. Eurocopter AS350 with a plastic fuel tank. Lightest way they could do it. Weight is the enemy to all helicopters. Big or small.
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Post by noooby on Feb 18, 2018 17:26:42 GMT 12
Why would there be a required service? Depends on the length of the ferry and where the helicopter is in it's maintenance cycle. Same with all helicopters. Even civil helicopters need inspections! Some as low as every 25 hours. Nothing unusual there. UH-1 was also 25 hours between maintenance. It's a significant difference compared with putting them in a C-17 or whatever. It's an option that takes longer and makes them less useful in the fairly short term, which is often when they are most helpful. A competent team should bang out a 25 hour in 2-3 hours. About the same amount of time needed to reassemble an aircraft after air transport in a C-17. Yes, ferrying the helo will take longer. They fly slow. But if a C-17 wasn't available, at least you still have the option.
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Post by madmac on Feb 19, 2018 11:26:47 GMT 12
Funny thing is, the biggest helo I've worked on (S-64 Skycrane) is the most cost effective when you think $/lb of payload! The Skycrane is a single role design (for the purpose of the airframe design, not role equipment) for which design & manufacturing tooling costs were covered by the US Army. Type design & tooling were purchased for most likely cents on the dollar and supported by a modest sized vertically integrated design / manufacture / maintenance / operator. There isn't a lot of ways one could get a cheaper / better business model. I understand that there is some form of anti ice capacity for the A109 which the RNZAF may or may not have fitted (the crew will have to take extra small packed lunches if it is).
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Post by frankly on Feb 19, 2018 17:38:50 GMT 12
It's useful to think of block times when looking at transporting valuable kit like helicopters.Block times let things like maintenance hours per flight, transit time, load/unload, pre and post-flight checks and crew rest to be factored in.
Anyone stopped to work out what the crew flying hours look like ferrying a chopper to the islands? Mil duty time used to be 8 hours by day or 4 hours by night.
An island hop might not be the fastest way to get from A to B over a given time block. At least transport and reassembly can be done at night, and without impacting on rotary crew flying hours.
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