RNZAF B-34 Ventura Gun Question

[Dave Homewood]

There don't seem to be many photos around of the RNZAF's Lockheed B-34 Venturas, the batch of second-hand ex-USAAF aircraft that they got before the new PV-1's arrived. But of the handful of photos and references I have seen, it seems some of them had a twin light machine-gun mounting in the clear nose section. This only seems to be evident on a few RNZAF B-34's/RB-34's and not on others.

One such photo appears in the Ventura Publications book 'Pacific Twins' of B-34 NZ4589 just after it had arrived in New Zealand, in a hangar at Hobsonville. The US markings are still on the aeroplane. The photo was supplied to the publishers by Robert E. Montgomery. Malcolm Laird has given me permission to post this here, I have zoomed in on a section of the photo to show the nose of this aircraft:


Does anyone know if this gun mount was a standard Lockheed fitting on certain batches of early Venturas/Lexingtons and not on others? Or was this perhaps a field-fitted modification done in the Aleutian Islands by the USAAF?

Did the RNZAF ever fly any Venturas with this gun mount fitted or was it removed prior to test flight? What are the guns?

Any information would be most welcome, thanks.

[trx850]

Hi Dave. That was a standard Lockheed factory fitting for the early Venturas, and all the RAF's Ventura I and II's were so fitted. They were .30 cals. on USAAF models, and .303's on the RAF ones.

Cheers,
Pete M.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Pete. So any idea how many of the B-34's that the RNZAF got had this gun mount? Was it all of them initially?

Were they fitted to the ones that went to No. 4GR Sqn in Fiji?

[trx850]

Hi Dave. I would suspect that all of them were received with this set-up.

As you have noted, there are sod all photos around of the RB-34's!
In 'RNZAF The First Decade', there is a photo of NZ4583 of 11(SU) taken at Darton Field, and it has the nose guns in place. This photo also shows the underwing ASV radar aerials.

Cheers,
Pete M.

[northcro]

Dave:

The Lockheed B-34A-VE (Model 137-27-02) Venturas (Lexingtons in the USAAC service and RNZAF) from October 1942 were redesignated RB-34A-VE (with the R = Restricted Combat capability) were originally assigned to the USAAC from a British Ventura IIA contract. In USAAC service, 13 were supplied as Navigational Trainers designated B-34A-1-VE's, 57 as bomber trainers designated B-34A-2-VE's, 28 as gunner trainers designated B-34A-3-VE's, 16 as Target Tugs designated B-34A-4-VE's. These Lexingtons were ultimately transferred to Commonwealth countries such as the RAF, RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF to be used specifically as training aircraft. A further 20 were fitted with a Martin Dorsal Turret with two 0.5in calibre guns and possibly used for armed reconnaisance and observation duties in USAAC service.

23 well worn RB-34A-VE Lexington's were supplied to the RNZAF from the USAAC NZ4583 to NZ4605 with 21 arriving June 1943 and the last two December 1943. They were supplied with two 0.5 calibre guns in the upper nose just forward of the cockpit area plus two 0.3 calibre guns mounted in the glazed nose mid front framing. An additional 0.5 calibre flexible gun was mounted in the ventral position. This was standard armament fitted in the Vega factory under the original British contract however the British 0.303 calibre guns were replaced when the aircraft were supplied to the USAAC. They were not a field modification.

It appears the RB-34 Lexingtons transferred to the RNZAF were all ex USAAC Training aircraft, thus the reason for their poor condition when they arrived in New Zealand.

Your photograph of the RB-34A-VE Lexington NZ4589 (USAAC Serial 41-38107/Original RAF Serial FD655) displays the original Lockheed Vega factory supplied standard armament mounting for the 200 original British Ventura Mark IIa production batch of contract aircraft ordered (FD568-767) .

Have a look at the photographs of the Ventura I & II's in service with 487 New Zealand Squadron RAF and you will note the same nose armament layout mountings. These aircraft were originally part of the same original British supply contract with the same glazed Ventura noses.

Trust this assists. I can quote book references for this material if further information is required.

[northcro]

Found some further reference material in Steve Ginters excellent Naval Fighters series No.86 on the PV-1 Venturas and PV2 Harpoons it mentions outside some early East Coast ASW coastal patrols the USAAC made little use of the Lexington operationally. The Lexington Bomber trainers were used as flying classrooms for training instructors at Randolf Field north east of San Antonio, Texas in the Bomber Pilot Training Division. The Lexington Gunner trainers were based at Laredo, Texas and the Lexington Navigation trainers at San Marcos in Texas. It also mentions the Lexingtons originally allocated to these training schools were later allocated to British Commonwealth countries such as New Zealand mentioned earlier.

It appears it was US Navy PV-1's of VPB-131 that served at Attu in the Aleutians not USAAC Lexingtons.

Photographs of RNZAF Lexingtons are very scarce it does appear they had the mountings for the front guns and from the very few photographs I have seen the guns were mounted.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for all this.

i was seriously under the impression that the R for Restricted was applied later after they were found unsuitable in Fiji for operational use. I didn't realise that they were restricted when they were first allocated. Cheers.

[northcro]

It was the USAAC that applied the R= Restricted designation to the RB-34 Lexingtons not the RNZAF when they were found unsuitable for their operations, thus delegated to mainly training roles.

[Dave Homewood]

It makes you wonder why the RNZAF considered them fine to put into operational service. I have interviewed an Air Gunner who flew in them in Fiji. It was a while ago but as far as I remember he said that it was not the fact that they were well used and worn out that saw them removed from front line service, it was that they were fitted with radios and other equipment that was totally incapatable with what they had been using. I'm sure he told me that there was no difference whatsoever in the guns (his job) which is why i was surprised about the two extra guns in the front.

Were those two guns fixed and fired by the pilot like the ones on top of the nose or did they swivel and get fired by the navigator?

[Dave Homewood]

It's rather interesting considering their supposed worn out condition when they arrived and the fact they went into the training role that not one single RB-34 was lost in RNZAF service to an accident. All of them survived to be later broken up by Larsens or Edwards, except NZ4600 at MOTAT and NZ4596 which was converted to produce after life as INST81 at the E&W School. For clapped out bombers when they arrived that's a fine record of safety.

[nuuumannn]

You can clearly see where the two nose guns went on NZ4600.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for that Nuumannn, I have looked at older photos of that aircraft and it clearly did not have the apertures for guns, so it must have had a different nose cap fitted. Most photos have it with canvas over the nose so you cannot see as it's sat outside so many years.

[angelsonefive]

"It was the USAAC that applied the R= Restricted designation.."

It would have been the USAAF by that time, the USAAC having been renamed in June 1941.

Interesting to see that NZ4589 has the constructor's number ( 4763 ) painted on the fuselage.

I do not recall seeing that before.

[nuuumannn]

You can also see where the upper nose gun protruded from in that photo. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this aircraft.

[corsairarm]

I found this photo in my collection BUT it may well be one I have downloaded from this forum. I will have to do a search to verify it.

It clearly shows two holes for the guns so Barry East must have acquired it in the early stages of the restoration. That is Barry East with the hat on.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Richard. Maybe I should look again at the photos I viewed. Maybe me minces are on the blink.

[fwx]

... and my pixel's-worth, with starboard upper gun slot visible at top:



Cheers, Chris

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, there's never been any question over the pilot's guns on top of the nose, they all had them, as did the Hudson. Nice shot though.

[gunny]

Dave, is there anyway there can be a subpage made for kiwi and aus modifications to U.S b-24 ect or other aircraft? as we all know the kiwi no9 fencing wire is a dissapearing traight and should be celebrated and ya gotta love Kiwi and aussie mods to yank aircraft.
Just my 2c worth, but i love how we improved yank a/c

[Dave Homewood]

Just start a thread in the General Board.