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Post by Calum on Apr 4, 2012 14:00:11 GMT 12
You can have all the spares you want. But when you want to get them repaired you get to experience the joy of dealing with a European OEM....
Many of the problems the ADF has had with the MRH-90 seem to design issues/flaws (e.g. the engine issues, floor, durability in the battlefield helo role). These are not ADF specific issues but applicable to other operators as well (e.g. the German Army)
Someone commented to me that the MHRH 90 is a great helicopter if you want to drop your troops of 1km behind the front line. Not so good if you have o fly troop s into a somewhere where they’re getting shot at.
One of the reasons being that the troops cannot sit on their seats with all their armour/webbing on and still be in crashworthy seats (a fully loaded soldier exceeds the max weight the seat is specified to and still meet the crashworthiness standard.The troops have to put their webbing on the floor (not under the seats) and put it on once they get up.
I’m sure many of these will be worked out and later customers obviously benefit from these improvements as they come to hand. But they will be expected to pay for these if my experience is anything to go buy.
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Post by beagle on Apr 8, 2012 20:13:04 GMT 12
pretty sure fitting some of these would hold up any big troop with full kit.
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Post by gunny on Apr 9, 2012 1:03:35 GMT 12
pretty sure fitting some of these would hold up any big troop with full kit. HAHAHA Beages thanks now i have coffee coming out my nose, nice pic. The NH-90's prob need some Kiwi no9 fencing wire tech. Sheesh who would have thought the seats would'nt support a combat laden soldier who the heck were the designers thinking was going to sit there MAJOR fail.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 9, 2012 14:51:31 GMT 12
How about this: Saves problems with seats, and you can squeeze more grunts onboard! And instead of games, you could use them to update the grunts on the tactical situation at the LZ, and their predicted life expectancy upon arrival at a hot LZ!
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Post by phil82 on Apr 9, 2012 15:11:43 GMT 12
After seeing the NH-90 display at Ohakea there is just no way this was the right replacement for the UH-1. The NH-90 is not a replacement for the UH-1, they are a replacement for a capability! In other words you don't go out and source a helicopter that does the same as a helo you have had for 40 years! You ask what do you want to do with a helicopter in todays combat environment. Most of the answer was driven by the Army as a prime role is battlefield insertion of troops and the NH-90 delivers on this and everything else required of it. Everytime the RNZAF purchases something new, it seems everybody thinks they know better, without understanding the facts or the time and detail that goes into making those procurement decisions. Well put, and absolutely spot on! Strange though it may seem, the procurement process for the NH90 wasn't determined over a beer in the local pub! Having written Treasury Submissions for new equipment, albeit a few years ago, I can tell you the selection process for ANY new major defense purchase is a huge task with carefully considered input from EXPERTS, at every stage. Still, I get a good laugh when I read on these pages that, on the basis of no knowledge whatsoever, someone thinks they got it wrong. ;D
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Post by beagle on Apr 9, 2012 17:24:56 GMT 12
Did we have a test pilot go and test drive a Nh-90 before we selected ?
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 9, 2012 17:30:17 GMT 12
Well put, and absolutely spot on! Strange though it may seem, the procurement process for the NH90 wasn't determined over a beer in the local pub! Having written Treasury Submissions for new equipment, albeit a few years ago, I can tell you the selection process for ANY new major defense purchase is a huge task with carefully considered input from EXPERTS, at every stage. Still, I get a good laugh when I read on these pages that, on the basis of no knowledge whatsoever, someone thinks they got it wrong. ;D You sure about that? Just looking at some projects like HMNZS Charles Upham, HMNZS Canterbury II, the Offshore Patrol Vessels, as well as the possible deal to purchase the SH-2G(I) helicopters and I could swear that someone had been at the bar for a few hours too many when they came up with those purchases. And I reckon someone from the Australian Defence Material Organisation was probably having a few with them at the same time whilst making important decions on some of the ADF's purchases too. I personally believe that 'some' defence staff and senior public servants get taken in by the long lunches, the glossy brochures, the flashy powerpoint presentations, and the free gifts of desktop models & keyrings far too many times, and very quickly manage to lose sight of the big picture.
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Post by hawkeye on Apr 9, 2012 18:31:11 GMT 12
" Most of the answer was driven by the Army as a prime role is battlefield insertion of troops and the NH-90 delivers on this and everything else required of it."
Well that was the first mistake. And what evidence do we have that THIS army - which I have served 20 + yrs in including in high level dev roles - understands aviation? You dress this up as much as you like but key staff tilted the project to make sure army had as much money for other projects. Those consutled on this are known to be the blunt knives in draw - other heard this aswell.
So army has noooo redress when RNZAF want them to carry matting around in battlefeild so the NH-90 can land for casevac.
"Strange though it may seem, the procurement process for the NH90 wasn't determined over a beer in the local pub!" - You'd be surprised what is decided in the bar.
The comments on capability are correct but the gross error chack was not made on do we actually need it and can we actually afford it.
Like good Kiwis we will make it work but we have to do better next time eh?
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Post by beagle on Apr 9, 2012 19:34:54 GMT 12
Just been sent an image of the new redesigned seats for the aussie MRH-90
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 9, 2012 20:26:53 GMT 12
Just been sent an image of the new redesigned seats for the aussie MRH-90 And plenty of storage room for weapons and person kit in the box compartment underneath. ;D Available for $49.95 at Big W, Target or Kmart - or $4995 under a Eurocopter spare parts support package.
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Post by nuuumannn on Apr 10, 2012 16:46:20 GMT 12
Great comment - the following is totally out of context, but Boeing's design for carrying passengers in what became the 747, Rolls Royce's decision to build Whittle units, sketches were made for Lord Hives over a pint. Someone commented on the engine's simplicity, to which Hives stated, "don't worry, we'll design the simplicity out of it..."
Back to plastic helicopters...
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Post by fyl on Apr 13, 2012 15:54:52 GMT 12
Item on Stuff today... www.stuff.co.nz/national/6739593/New-airforce-NH-90-helicopters-flawedNew airforce NH-90 helicopters flawed Eight new $700 million airforce helicopters have a serious flaw that even when fixed will prevent use in snowy conditions. The Royal New Zealand Air Force is the first military force to use the high technology NH-90s, winning criticism from Auditor-General Lyn Provost who says this country should not be buying "first of type" equipment. Her comments came in a Defence Force report published on its website this week dealing with the military's major projects. The report also reveals that the P3 Orion $373-million upgrade project has hit problems again with the air force purchasing an "as is" used flight deck simulator that is not compatible with the new planes. The NH-90s were ordered in 2006 by then Defence Minister Phil Goff to replace the air force's Vietnam War era Iroquois helicopters. Provost says in her report that no other airforce was using them when they were commissioned although she said 16 countries now have orders in for 500 NH-90s. "The NH-90 was to be capable of being quickly deployed in a C130 Hercules aircraft," she said. But it cannot currently and Defence is "looking at other transport options". These include the helicopters flying themselves all the way across the Pacific if they can be refuelled, or going aboard the navy multi role ship HMNZS Canterbury - but only in certain safe sea state conditions. The only aircraft available that can fly them anywhere are the ex-Soviet Union Antonov-124 transporter. Other risks are present, including the NH 90 being "prone to damage" from debris drawn into the engines. "To mitigate this risk, NHIndustries is to supply screens that can be fitted to the engines." Provost says once the screens are fitted, the helicopters will not be able to operate in snowy conditions. A solution might be worked out but it will take time and mean the helicopters are taken out of service, affecting aircrew training. Provost said that previously the military projects with the least delay were those that were bought off the shelf. "In my view, in addition to more focus on off-the-shelf items, more consideration must be given to the risks involved in buying aircraft that are 'first of type'," she said. "Aircraft with proven capabilities may be better value for money and may be more quickly introduced into service." The defence report itself says the airforce will have eight NH-90s with a ninth available for spare parts. The report says NHIndustries is believed to be freezing software development on the helicopter before it reaches the standard asked for by New Zealand. Defence say they will not accept further helicopters unless they meet the software standards. The report says it is almost certain the helicopters will come without external equipment being ready - such as a gun mount - and its paperwork sufficient to maintain air worthiness.
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Post by kiwiinoz on Apr 13, 2012 19:20:50 GMT 12
It must have been one hell of a bender for those who picked the Aeromacchi 339CB. What a pile of garbage they were.
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Post by jonesy on Apr 13, 2012 19:35:54 GMT 12
Just reading the Stuff article, then scrolled down to the comments-man, theres some pretty dumb, uninformed people out there! I havent commented cos I DONT KNOW ALL THE FACTS! Shame most of them didnt do the same....
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Post by beagle on Apr 13, 2012 19:42:50 GMT 12
I have just read all the comments people have made regards the article. There are some real no hopers living here in NZ that know diddly squat about the military and military equipment
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Post by Calum on Apr 13, 2012 19:54:44 GMT 12
I doubt the requirement to fit in a C-130 was a requirement. No one could think that a NH-90 would fit in a C-130.
And they NH-90 will fit in a C-17, so the AN-124 isn't the "only" aircraft
Although I agree that not being able to deploy a helicopter quickly via fixed wing transport
Flying a helciopter a long distance (like across the Pacific) is not ideal.
The final comments about documentation are typical of Euro trash helicopters in my experience. After 9 yrs on As350's I'd never buy a French helicopter with a French engine..
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Post by beagle on Apr 13, 2012 20:17:08 GMT 12
I doubt the requirement to fit in a C-130 was a requirement. No one could think that a NH-90 would fit in a C-130. And they NH-90 will fit in a C-17, so the AN-124 isn't the "only" aircraft The AN124 is the only aircraft certified to carry it...at the moment Of course other aircraft would be able to carry it, ie, C17, C5, an70, AN225, A400, B747 DreamLifter, A330 Beluga and maybe an underslung load under a Chinook
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Post by Calum on Apr 13, 2012 21:13:38 GMT 12
The AN124 is the only aircraft certified to carry it...at the moment Of course other aircraft would be able to carry it, ie, C17, C5, an70, AN225, A400, B747 DreamLifter, A330 Beluga and maybe an underslung load under a Chinook That I didn't know. I don't think I've seen then in a RAAF C-17 yet now that you mention it.
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Post by beagle on Apr 13, 2012 21:18:19 GMT 12
They must have to go through some sort of certification process to be able to do it for the manufacturer I guess. It wouldn't be for insurance purposes would it ?
Won't fit in a Hercules, I suposse if you towed it behind it it, thats maybe called carrying it, but that is another reason we will get A400's at the end of the decade.
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Post by Calum on Apr 13, 2012 21:36:38 GMT 12
The RAAF have a unit that does this.
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