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Post by steveh on Mar 19, 2012 13:08:08 GMT 12
I have read about this before, probably in "Night After Night" & done some further reading online about this episode but nonetheless found the documentary fascinating & moving viewing. It has long seemed to me a shame that Phil Lamason has not been recognised in the country of his birth for his unstinting heroism during this time. I missed the start of it ( yeah I know, should've recorded it ) & would like to know will this be released at some stage on DVD, I'd like my young to be able to watch it at some stage & would like to watch it again myself. Well done Lostairmendirector (Mike?) Many thanks for a job well worth doing. Steve.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 19, 2012 13:42:11 GMT 12
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 19, 2012 14:29:57 GMT 12
Steve and Dave - The DVD that we currently have for sale on our site is NTSC format and encoded for playing on North American DVD players, so it may not work with your DVD player. We are working on making a DVD version for NZ available.
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Post by steveh on Mar 19, 2012 14:54:49 GMT 12
Steve and Dave - The DVD that we currently have for sale on our site is NTSC format and encoded for playing on North American DVD players, so it may not work with your DVD player. We are working on making a DVD version for NZ available. Great, I'll be keeping an eye out for it. Thanks for this info. Steve.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 19, 2012 14:56:37 GMT 12
OK. Most NZ players are multi-region these days, although those in computers often have to be cracked to play foreign region DVD's.
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Post by ErrolC on Mar 19, 2012 15:05:25 GMT 12
OK. Most NZ players are multi-region these days, although those in computers often have to be cracked to play foreign region DVD's. And most will convert NTSC to PAL as well, but quality does suffer a bit - a proper re-encode as PAL is obviously better.
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 19, 2012 15:35:10 GMT 12
When we interviewed Lamason, we played for him an NTSC copy of some of the interview footage we had already filmed with some of the other airmen. It played, but there was a bit of a flicker - probably because of the frame rate difference. If you order a copy, I believe the DVD site that we use accepts returns.
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Post by littlegreyrabbit on Mar 20, 2012 0:18:38 GMT 12
lostairmendirector states this:
Correct, a both trust and distrust Kogon, generally I trust him to put the Nazi system in the worst possible light, I don't trust him to always stick to the gospel truth while doing so. Hence if he knew of an intent to execute the airmen, then I can not think of a motivation for him to conceal this.
Now I don't know how highly the director rates the wikipedia page on Phil Lamason, but in part it says this: "Unknown to all airmen except Lamason, their execution had been scheduled for 26 October, if they remained at Buchenwald.[24][29][31][38] News of the airmen's scheduled execution had been conveyed to Lamason by a German Communist prisoner, Eugen Kogon, who had a reliable contact within the camp administrative area.[13][30][note 4] Lamason discussed the information at length with Yeo-Thomas, Burney and Robert and they concluded there was little that could be done to avert the mass execution.[3] Lamason decided not to inform the airmen, but to keep this information to himself to avoid panic and in the slight hope the Luftwaffe would intervene in time"
Kogon was not a communist, but it is claimed that Kogon was the source of the information obtained by Lamason. However, it is impossible to square the claim that Kogon was the source of such an order with what Kogon himself was writing in the 1950s.
The 2nd witness allegedly privy to this execution order was Yeo-Thomas. He told his story in the 1950s extensively to Bruce Marshall in The White Rabbit.
Lamason appears on pages 194 through to 197 and 207.
Here are the relevant passages.
Kogon hadn't heard of the execution. Yeo-Thomas hadn't heard of the execution - yet both of these are supposed to be people who could confirm the story.
It is inconceivable that Yeo-Thomas would not have brought such a matter to the attention of the Buchenwald trial or the Buchenwald trial prosecution team. Just as it is inconceivable that Lamason would not have raised the issue when the divisive issue of the filling out the bogus Red Cross forms was splitting the group.
I don't have an opinion on whether Lamason is a hero or not - it is not a question that interests me, good luck to those who are interested in such matters. I do, however, object to those who prey on elderly men and encourage them to spice up their stories (stories that are probably quite worthwhile told without exaggeration) for their own personal ends. In this I refer to people such as the ghost writer of Denis Avery's "The Man Who Broke Into Auschwitz" and others of this genre.
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Post by littlegreyrabbit on Mar 20, 2012 0:27:39 GMT 12
errolmartyn said this
The director says that one of the authors claims to have original Nazi documentation that confirms the execution but he has not seen it.
If this claim is not true that surely we all agree that this author is not just dishonest, he is a liar. If the claim is true then perhaps the director can prevail on him to place said documentation on the internet.
Seriously, the world has come to strange state where people can deceitfully claim to possess documentation and can not be called dishonest. Of course, perhaps the author was innocent and the director's claim was in error.
If the director wishes to retract his claim then I would be happy to withdraw my imputations in this particular matter.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 20, 2012 1:29:23 GMT 12
Littlegreyrabbit - Does it really matter that much? The Nazi guards quite clearly murdered many thousands of people at Buchenwald. Most will agree that those included the SOE agents - you think otherwise, but whatever you find at the bottom of all this research you're conducting, you'll never ever clear those Nazis of being evil, murderous bastards who should all rot in hell; and attempting to defend them by seeking some paperwork that might clear them of a few agents' deaths will never win many friends.
This well researched and well made documentary is hugely important for New Zealand as it has highlighted the bravery and incredible leadership of one of our countrymen, who not only brought together Allies of many nations under his command in a way that they collectively defeated fear, oppression, starvation, abuse and the very real threat of murder, but he also took great personal risk to stand up to the Nazis in a most brutal of all hellholes. Seeing such a man's story being told by a foreign documentary the will get worldwide coverage is simply fantastic for many of us on this forum - a New Zealand aviation forum with a very strong RNZAF following - and if you want to continue to imply that this great New Zealander is a liar and has made up parts of the story, I suggest that you'll lose even more friends. Please take the nitpicking and theorising elsewhere.
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 20, 2012 7:34:14 GMT 12
And so the timid and cowardly rabbit continues make unsubstantiated accusations about named persons while he/she himself/herself contines to hide behind a nickname. The term LMF comes to mind . . . Errol
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Post by ErrolC on Mar 20, 2012 9:07:47 GMT 12
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Post by nuuumannn on Mar 20, 2012 11:15:20 GMT 12
Hear hear, Dave and Errol. This is sickening to think that someone is nit picking over the validity of a claim in a situation like this. This got my blood boiling and if I wasn't working last night I would have got on the computer and got seriously abusive (with apologies to you all for such bad language), but hopefully the bloke might sling 'is 'ook. If not - Littlegreyrabbit. what is the motive of your accusations and what do you hope to prove in this situation? Did these airmen, or anyone for that matter need any form of documentation proving they were on a one way ticket to Buchenwald? I mean, seriously, are you out of your fricken mind?! You claim that the initials on their cards that state that they were not to leave were not important, well, I disagree. Clearly, being sent to a KZ by the Gestapo meant that they were not going to ever leave; it was be worked to death or die of disease in the most appalling conditions possible, otherwise, why send them there? Was documentation that you so desperately seek necessary? Surely, the Nazis knew these men were not SOE agents because the Belgian double agent was receiving payouts from the Gestapo for every airman he surrendered to them, so they knew. What difference does it make? My point here is that no one, let me repeat that; NO ONE should have had to have endured the horrors and suffering of the Nazi concentration camps regardless of whether they were airmen, SOE agents, homosexuals, Jews, enemies of the state etc. What possible end could the director or the airmen gain by fabricating such a story? What possible end do you think you are going to gain by accusing them of being liars and proving them wrong? Do you think that the Nazis might be thought of differently if such a document did not exist? You sad, sad little man. Clearly, you live in your own world and you have no idea of what it is you are debating here. Such pathetic efforts by you display a complete lack of understanding of the Gestapo's raison d'etre and a naivete that is difficult to fathom. Go to Europe and visit one of these places. You might learn something.
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 20, 2012 15:17:19 GMT 12
ErrolC - Thank you very much for posting the link to that blog post.
Today we received confirmation that the GI Film Festival in Washington DC has accepted the film. That's a festival dedicated to veteran-themed films and they always have a pretty star-studded list of attendees. And we are preparing to screen at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC, which is America's central memorial and museum for the Holocaust. And of course, there is the upcoming screening in Germany just a few kilometers from Buchenwald's front gate.
So while Internet trolls like rabbit dedicate their free time to defending Nazis with flimsy arguments - as though the SS and the Gestapo were the real victims - and demanding evidence from great men who are no longer alive to produce it, as with the airman who located the documents related to this group's scheduled executions, the truth marches on, and their stories will be told.
There are some folks out there who find it their duty to prove that the Germans were the victims of a smear campaign. The list of desperate excuses for the camps is a hundred miles long. But what's ironic about this is that the average German has owned up to what their people did and they detest it. Stand in front of the Reichstag today and give the Nazi salute, and see how fast the Germans throw you in jail. Talk to a citizen in a city like Weimar, right down the road from Buchenwald, and they will tell you about how THEY were liberated by the American Army.
I'm glad rabbit took the time to come here and take a beating because people like him are the reason films like this need to be seen. The truth challenges the imaginary versions of history that some people cling to.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 20, 2012 20:06:40 GMT 12
Aw man, I didn't realise it was open season on rabbits, I resisted the urge for three nights!
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zolteg
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 82
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Post by zolteg on Mar 20, 2012 20:24:21 GMT 12
lostairmendirector; Bloody good documentary. Thank you for telling that story. In other news, wrote today to the NZ Herald at Arms to ask if there's anything that can be done to get this bloke a gong for his leadership & behaviours. If it happened today, I reckon he'd be up for an NZGD or NZGS at least.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 20, 2012 21:00:15 GMT 12
Well done Zolteg. Please keep us informed on anything that comes from it.
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Post by littlegreyrabbit on Mar 20, 2012 23:49:48 GMT 12
So while Internet trolls like rabbit dedicate their free time to defending Nazis with flimsy arguments - as though the SS and the Gestapo were the real victims - and demanding evidence from great men who are no longer alive to produce it, as with the airman who located the documents related to this group's scheduled executions, the truth marches on, and their stories will be told. There are some folks out there who find it their duty to prove that the Germans were the victims of a smear campaign. The list of desperate excuses for the camps is a hundred miles long. But what's ironic about this is that the average German has owned up to what their people did and they detest it. Stand in front of the Reichstag today and give the Nazi salute, and see how fast the Germans throw you in jail. Talk to a citizen in a city like Weimar, right down the road from Buchenwald, and they will tell you about how THEY were liberated by the American Army. Some of the older ones might tell you how they were raped by former prisoners of Buchenwald in the immediate aftermath, but certainly the overwhelming majority have not the slightest Nazi sympathies. Well, delighted to have been of service, old boy. Although what I really came here was neither to take or give out beatings, but to share and receive information. Although thus far it does seem to be all one way traffic - one person providing citations and everyone else sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting LA LA LA, NOT LISTENING, NOT LISTENING. Still, hope springs eternal, so lets give it another go. I read in "Destination: Buchenwald" by Colin Burgess, on page 133. According to Yeo-Thomas's account as retold by Bruce Marshall, Lamason was smuggled into typhus quarantine on one occasion - but he makes no mention of such momentous, albeit laconic, discussions. And Lamason seems to have forgotten that this conversation took place in a typhus ward. Nonetheless, I find the claim that the BBC made a broadcast on the subject not at all unlikely. It would certainly provide a fairly plausible explanation for the sudden transfer. As anyone interested in this subject actually researched the BBC archives on such matter. You know, done actual archival research, not just invent the existence of documents which no one is allowed to see. Is the BBC broadcast claim a verified fact?
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Post by lostairmendirector on Mar 21, 2012 8:01:33 GMT 12
rabbit - I already said at the beginning of this conversation that I wasn't going to waste any time defending a film to someone who refuses to even watch it. Half of your questions would be answered if you would just watch it, but you refuse to do that. I spent 2 years making this documentary and I'm not going to spend another second explaining it to someone when they could just watch it. I could thoroughly answer every question you've asked here, with citations, but I don't have the time to write the essays that it would take to satisfy you, nor is anyone who would publicly call these men liars worth the effort.
It would, literally, take me hours of work just to fully answer the questions you've asked in this thread already, and to correct some of the completely bogus accusations and straw man arguments that you've made. And I know from experience that that wouldn't be the end of it - you'd have a whole new list of questions for me to answer, and call me and these 90-year-old men who risked their lives for your future "liars" because of some other omitted piece of trivia, and then the process would start all over again.
In short, I don't know you and I don't owe you anything.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 21, 2012 8:23:30 GMT 12
Hop along littlegreyrabbit, I have also heard enough from you. My Great Uncle and Granddad were haunted by their experiences in Nazi concentration camps until their dying days. And when I think of the stories they told, I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like in the death camps. I imagine these airmen were also affected in similar ways to my Great Uncle, who was a sailor. The truth is irrefutable and indefensible. There is no excusing the Nazi regime for what happened, and to try to absolve the Nazis of blame is abhorrent.
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