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Post by longforgan on Apr 6, 2012 23:04:44 GMT 12
Trying to find a copy of the No 489 Torpedo Bomber Squadron by David Burrowes. I have tried the author and 489 Association but have had no joy. The association said David is very emphatic that the few remaining books are to be retained for surviving 489’ers or immediate next of kin. Also they said . "We are not able to do a reprint due to copyright issues."
Has anyone know where I could pick one up.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 6, 2012 23:16:13 GMT 12
You can't, due to the rather unusual stance taken by the author not to sell it to people.
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Post by errolmartyn on Apr 7, 2012 10:03:39 GMT 12
You can't, due to the rather unusual stance taken by the author not to sell it to people. And a unique a very strange one, too, given that the book was funded by Veteran Affairs ($5000 of taxpayers money) and the Air Force Museum of New Zealand Trust Board ($2000). It's a very odd way of encouraging non-489 Sqn association members to 'remember them'. Errol
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 7, 2012 11:43:01 GMT 12
I my opinion, if the author is restricting who can purchase the book, then he should be required to pay back all the taxpayers money that was handed over to him.
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Post by Calum on Apr 7, 2012 20:47:21 GMT 12
Must be crap work if he doesn't want it read
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Post by longforgan on Apr 7, 2012 23:41:48 GMT 12
Calum its a really good book thats why i want it. I just can't understand why it can't be reprinted. Good grief I wrote a book on the history of Port Ahuriri Napier and I have run a second edition and sold 3,600. Perhaps I should re-write the book on 489 and sell it.
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Post by Andy Wright on Apr 7, 2012 23:42:07 GMT 12
Given the amount of interest around the world in the squadron and its history the Association would certainly generate some good income from the sale of a second edition. That income would be put to good use.
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Post by Calum on Apr 8, 2012 9:07:51 GMT 12
Calum its a really good book thats why i want it. I just can't understand why it can't be reprinted. Good grief I wrote a book on the history of Port Ahuriri Napier and I have run a second edition and sold 3,600. Perhaps I should re-write the book on 489 and sell it. Yeah I was being a bit facetious It does seem like a strange attitude. Soon 99% of those copies will be with people (NOK) who either don't or won't appreciate the book and his work will be lost. That the author thinks that most of the NOK care as much about the book as their relatives (or many here) is a little naive IMHO Considering their isn't much info on 489 that would be a shame,
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Post by Calum on Apr 8, 2012 9:11:42 GMT 12
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Post by longforgan on Apr 8, 2012 11:16:38 GMT 12
thats great if you live in Auckland. I watched the DVD wich came out I think during the launch of the the book and found it very emotional.
I would like to know what the copyright issues are in reprinting the book!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 12:09:54 GMT 12
It is quite interesting.
A long time ago the author contacted me and asked where he could find certain information on his father's squadron because he was writing a book on his father. I directed him to a number of sources and after some correspondence he contacted me and told me that he had changed tack and was going to write about the squadron. I felt he was trustworthy and that it was a worthwhile project so I connected him with a few veterans that I had met over the years. In return he promised me a copy of the book. When it was published he told me that he wouldn't give me one because they were all going to veterans and 'he had no intention of giving copies to collectors' - I reminded him of his promise and his response was that "everyone says that' - the only difference is that I have his emails still when he expressed great delight in being told about certain individuals.
The book was not written by him - it was written by the veterans and edited into the book.
This stuff about issues with the copyright are simply self imposed - I have spoke to many who are offended that the information they provided is being restricted in its distribution.
If you think about it the book would not have been possible if Burrows had not been give the information by the veterans and yet that is all that others want - access to the information. To have a copy and to enjoy it and share it with others. Thats why people buy books. It is not as if he served on the squadron and owned the experiences and the information.
I have been given a few copies on permanent load by veterans who were offended by his stance.
I have also picked up a few new 486 manuscripts written by members of the squadron - the editor is writing another book (using the same approach of getting the info from the squadron members) and these manuscripts would be very useful and I am not adverse to giving him access - my purpose has always been to collect the information about what has been written so that it does no disappear after a few generations. That why I published the bibliography and collected all the manuscripts I have - to share with researchers and authors.
The situation is more sad than odd and does our veterans a dis-service in my mind.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 8, 2012 12:18:22 GMT 12
I'm wondering if the grant from Veteran's Affairs came with any conditions attached, as in my opinion, the author is basically restricting trade of a publicly-funded publication, which I think is ever so slightly dodgy and also very unfair to those with an interest in this particular squadron.
If he used his own money to publish the book and then said that he's only going to sell it to a certain market, then that's fine by me; but to accept public money and then set a restriction on who can purchase it is a bit rich in my opinion.
I thought the idea behind publishing a book of this nature is to encourage as a big a market as possible to - suitably commemorate all those who served their country by seeking to increase the size of the knowledge-base on the subject; create a tool which may assist others with their own research in the same field; and maybe, just maybe, even making a small profit to churn back into researching and publishing another book on a related topic of interest.
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Post by longforgan on Apr 8, 2012 13:58:48 GMT 12
Calum its a really good book thats why i want it. I just can't understand why it can't be reprinted. Good grief I wrote a book on the history of Port Ahuriri Napier and I have run a second edition and sold 3,600. Perhaps I should re-write the book on 489 and sell it. When I wrote The book PORT TO PORT pictorial history of Ahuriri Napier I was given some 200 photographs from the residents of the area I had permission to publish these as the people wanted their family and area history told. The difference was I had no funding and with two edition printed it cost me a total of $80,000 to do. I probably broke even half way through the second edition. What I believe that anyone who is given material from the people involved has an obligation to place the finished publication into the public arena so thier stories and history ca be read and pasted down to the younger generation so that they may learn from the sacrafice others have been through. I find it a shame that this has been not been done in this case. Question: what if someone decided to re - write the history of the 489 would the few remaing vet's back it?
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Post by davidnzl on Sept 4, 2012 12:00:54 GMT 12
I am surprised by the above comments re the copyright, funding and distribution issues re this book. To set the record straight
After I was alerted to copyright issues by the RNZAF museum - I spent considerable time seeking permission from several authors and authorities (including Errol Martyn, Colin Hansen and as well as the RNZAF museums, publishers and other organisations) to use their work to inform this publication. Several of these allowed their work to be used, at no cost, provided that the print run was limited. This was a very clear caveat. Further, information received directly from veterans and their families was used, for this purpose, only with their permission> They did not give permission for it to be disseminated to others (including one of the persons who is making postings on this matter). I have no intention of breaking my undertaking with these people and organizations.
I do not understand the concerns re the use of public money. (as I recall this was about 50% of the costs involved) Many other authors have used public money - including VANZ - for similar purposes. They have sold their book - presumably at a profit (albeit in the long term), which has gone into their bank account. Whilst I have no problem with this, I wonder if they have repaid their grants?
We took a different approach - the entire enterprise was to be non profit - All those involved have not received any monies for this for our extensive time involved - other than some of our direct costs. Interest free loans and gifts were also made available by 489 families to cover the shortfall until the money from sales was collected to cover printing and distribution costs. This was clearly spelled out in our application to VANZ and the RNZAF Museum. They expressed no concerns about this. Further, I do not have access to the funds ($80,000) that are obviously required for such a venture) If the VANZ and other grant money was not made available, this history - along with others - would undoubtedly be lost. A shame.
I note that, one of your correspondents claims to have played a major part in facilitating introductions to 489 Squadron members. This is incorrect. Larry Hill, who attended the book launch, and sought a copy for his collection, introduced me to one former Squadron member, who, in turn, introduced me to several others. I was grateful for this introduction, but it was by no means the only key to the door for this project - many others contributed. They are acknowledged in this volume. Without their help and goodwill this volume would not have been possible. (To the best of my recollection, no undertaking was made to provide Larry with a copy of this book in return for this introduction - I have only done so with one other person who will receive, when published a copy of a companion volume and roll of honour for an agreed price - in return for the use of his extensive research; and a copy of 2 of his 3 volumes, which were paid for by me)
Larry also alerted me to VANZ funding - as I recall he had also made an application during the year of the veteran. Later, at his reqquest, I supported another of his applications to VANZ
To address the issue of making 489s story more widely available, copies of this book were made available, world wide, to several aviation museums, air force associations, and other places associated with 489 Squadron. Copies were also offerred to museums in Holland, Germany, France (i.e the main theatre of operation of this Squadron). These are publically available. Larry and upwards of 20 other collectors, did not receive a copy of their collection as it was decided that 489's story would be more widely available through museums and the like mentioned above - rather than in the hands of individual collectors. This would enable 489's story could be more widely known and remembered. If you wish to read a copy, it can be interloaned from NZ National Library; and at various other aviation and military museums and libraries in NZ, Australia, UK, Norway, and Canada.
These decisions have not been made in isolation (as suggested). They have the full backing of 489 Squadron Association (past and present), which comprises former members of 489 Squadron; and their descendants.
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Post by errolmartyn on Sept 4, 2012 12:58:02 GMT 12
. . . When I was alerted to copyright issues by the RNZAF museum - I spent considerable time seeking permission from several authors and authorities (including Errol Martyn, Colin Hansen and others) to use their work to inform this publication. Several of these allowed their work to be used, at no cost, provided that the print run was limited. . . . The extraordinary claim that the late Colin Hanson (not Hansen) and me provided information for the book on the proviso that the 'print run was limited' IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. Personally, I was disappointed at the sloppy production standard of the publication and that, even so, it was not made available for public sale. History has been poorly served here and public money unwisely spent. Errol
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Post by davidnzl on Sept 4, 2012 19:35:50 GMT 12
To clarify my posting above and the subsequent response above.
I have an email (August 2006) that I sent to all persons (including Colin Hanson, Errol Martyn) and organisations seeking permission to use their material. It clearly states the plan to have only a limited distribution to for Squadron personnel, their families and a few museums.
As both Colin Hanson and Errol Martyn agreed to my request. I assumed was partly on the basis of the limited distribution of this book. If this was incorrect, I apologise. It is clear from some of those who gave permission, such as UK Archives and LOndon Times, it was explicitly a factor in allowing the free use of material; and others such as the NZ Ministry of Culture, whilst not explicitly limiting the number of copies allowed the use of "short extracts".
The other clear limiting factor was finance - as has been advised previously. Print costs alone exceeded the grants - let alone costs associated with NZ and world wide distribution.
I do not wish to comment on the other assertions other to say that this volume has been well received by those for whom it was intended - 489 Squadron personnel and their families; and is still sought after by collectors. Information from it has been made available (by me) to enquirers seeking specific information - posted on various web sites and hard copies are publically available in several countries.
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Post by errolmartyn on Sept 4, 2012 21:31:32 GMT 12
Just to clarify the record.
Excerpt from David Burrowes email to me dated 1 August 2006:
“With the support and encouragement of several former 489 Squadron personnel and their families I am preparing an unofficial history of 489 Squadron, and its activities during world war 2. This is for limited distributed to these people, and a few museums that are interested in this story.”
Excerpt from my reply of same date (I’d assumed that DB had wrongly thought there would not be a demand for the book by others, and I’d not appreciated that the author had already set in stone his odd proposal of a ‘limited’ distribution policy.)
“You may find that there is sufficient interest to justify the printing of at least several hundred copies, by the way.”
This gentle suggestion of there being a wider market for the book, I’m sad to say, fell on deaf ears.
I even had to pay a full $70 for my copy, by the way, even though I’d made a meaningful contribution to the work and the book was published with the aid of two substantial grants.
Errol
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Post by davidnzl on Sept 4, 2012 22:31:52 GMT 12
I take your point re the wider market.
Unfortunately - in addition to undertakings made - there there was neither time to renegotiate with the copyright holders and publish nor money to pursue the wider market at that time. (The book was printed in the week before the expiry of the VANZ funding deadline - any delay jeopardised the entire enterprise).
As previously noted, I do not have the means to publish, and await a return. In spite of an ocassional flurry of interest and comment on this and a few websites, the demand from Squadron members , their families and others has not been suffiicent to warrant (much less pay for) an extended let alone a further print run. This is evident by the fact that we currently still have a few books in hand. These are reserved for 489 personnel and/or their families - some of whom have only recently become aware of this publication.
I note, with interest, your comment re payment, as I have had to pay, full price for all books I have purchased to inform this book, including FYT.
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Post by errolmartyn on Sept 5, 2012 0:41:33 GMT 12
. . . I have had to pay, full price for all books I have purchased to inform this book, including FYT. The difference, of course, is that while my research contributed to your book yours did not contributed to any of mine! Errol
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Post by davidnzl on Sept 5, 2012 7:38:23 GMT 12
True - and I am very appreciative of your contribution to the history of these people, and my work
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