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Post by tasso on Apr 19, 2015 8:17:25 GMT 12
It appears from my research that the man holding the prop blade is W Cdr Irving 'Black' Smith, c/o of 487 Sqdn, who led the Poitiers raid, which would, I suspect, make the aircraft HP924 - EG(T), which served with great distinction, having been badly damaged in a bird strike (wrongly listed as a write-off) and transferred to 464 Sqdn before returning to 487 Sqdn. This photo was taken from on board: www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/464-Mosquito/IWM_CL_2011 . She was, alas, scrapped in 1948. I'm currently building a model of that very aircraft, for the museum in Poitiers
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 19, 2015 16:31:05 GMT 12
Thanks Tasso. Is it known what the word/s on his aircraft said?
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Post by tasso on Apr 21, 2015 4:34:54 GMT 12
It looks like it could be 'bla...' with the descender of the final letter brought back to underline the name. Bearing in mind what we know about the man, and suspect we know about the aircraft, I'd hazard an educated guess at 'blacky' ? There again that might be wishful thinking, as I doubt anyone in 1944 would sign his name in all lower-case. Going by other photo's of W Cdr Smith, I am in no doubt as to his identity (you'll also notice he has three stripes on his epaulette - so that also confirms his rank) Referring to earlier posts, I think the mysterious letter on the stepladder is a red herring; there would not have been a separate stepladder for each aircraft. The squadron letters are all that can be relied upon there. The half-missing letter is probably 'N', as the first character in 'NOT TO BE TAKEN AWAY' If I can trace the full service history of 'my' aircraft, I could go by the bomb tally to see what was the date of its 61st raid. Irving Smith left 487 shortly after the Poitiers raid of August 1944. I'd say this would probably have been taken around then
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 21, 2015 10:41:36 GMT 12
Good stuff Tasso. I wonder if there are any members of his family around who may have another photos of the aircraft without the covers on?
It could well be something like "blacky's bus" or similar rather than just his nickname alone.
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Post by tasso on Apr 23, 2015 7:43:52 GMT 12
I would love to find any photo's of this aircraft. It's a shame that Irving Smith's previous steed, MM417, was very well photographed as a publicity exercise. Alas she lasted only a short time before being totalled when he crash-landed after flak damage. I believe this aircraft became the next EG-T
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Post by tasso on Apr 24, 2015 22:32:20 GMT 12
I've had a thought regarding the white bomb markings - I suspect each of these indicate a pathfinder raid.
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Post by tasso on Apr 27, 2015 21:36:06 GMT 12
Just wish I had access to a high-res picture. The art detail is distorted by the image's JPEG compression. Does anyone know the source of the image?
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Post by tasso on Apr 30, 2015 22:42:48 GMT 12
It could conceivable be LR385, however she was with 21 Sqdn until 1945. Irving Smith left 487 in August '44, so the pic must have been taken before then. Bearing in mind at least three of the personnel (plus one stepladder!) in the picture were from 487 I'd doubt it would be that aircraft, though both squadrons were based at Thorney Island at the time.
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philr
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Post by philr on May 5, 2015 17:29:52 GMT 12
I can confirm from my father's log book that he flew HP933 on the Poitiers raid and the earlier raid on Bonneul Matours and became an acting squadron leader between the two. He is in both photographs. This might be HP933? (He never flew LR385.)
He flew HP933 on 33 of his 43 ops with 487. It may well have eventually completed 100 ops later in the war before being lost in Northern Germany.
W/C Smith signed the "Summary for July 1944". W/C Porteus signed the "Summary for August 1944". Given that Poitiers raid was 1st August, 1944 I can understand the earlier identification.
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philr
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Post by philr on May 7, 2015 14:58:23 GMT 12
I am of the opinion that the person holding the propeller is Roger Porteous. Today I was photographing my father's log book page by page. I came across a photo' of 487 Squadron complete with names on the reverse, probably taken at the end of W/C Smith's time with 487. He was in the centre, and is more like pictures I have found of him on the 'net. The definition is not amazing.
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Post by tasso on May 13, 2015 3:54:14 GMT 12
This gets curiouser and curiouser... the Squadron record doesn't list HP933 on the Poitiers raid, but shows Wally Runcieman as flying 'A' NT144. HP933 was up the following night, piloted by Fl/Lt RJ Coombe. All goes to illustrate how hard it is to get down to the facts so long after the event, esp when pilots often chopped & changed between aircraft. I'm sure records contain all sorts of discrepancies like this when all hands were working under such stress.
Smith's last op with 487 appears to have been on August 18/19, which would tie in with when Roger Porteous took over, however I haven't found the latter's name on the flight log for the rest of that month.
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Post by tasso on May 13, 2015 8:42:11 GMT 12
So, I reckon we can agree it is either HP933 or HP924 - LR385 isn't really an option. Either way, both aircraft were battle-hardened birds, flown by damn good pilots, neither of whom is here for us to talk to, more's the pity. Shame also that neither aircraft still exists
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Post by tasso on May 29, 2015 7:35:06 GMT 12
Alas, with no access to an unscanned (or at least high-res) version of the picture, the nose art will probably forever remain a mystery. Shame really
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philr
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Post by philr on Jun 25, 2015 13:59:47 GMT 12
HP933 was flown before(27th July, on and after(3rd Aug) the Poitiers Raid by Wally Runciman with Ergo Jones on operations, according to his log book. He did not fly it on the 2nd, so this agrees with the squadron records.
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Post by tasso on Jul 7, 2015 2:38:21 GMT 12
HP933 was flown before(27th July, on and after(3rd Aug) the Poitiers Raid by Wally Runciman with Ergo Jones on operations, according to his log book. He did not fly it on the 2nd, so this agrees with the squadron records. Phil, I'm inclined to agree re the identity of the officer holding the prop - reckon you're right in that it is more likely to be Roger Porteous. Who knows? Maybe the pics were actually taken at the point of transition from Smith to Porteous. I've been in touch with the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington; they have a slightly higher-resolution version of this image.
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davidhw
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Post by davidhw on Oct 20, 2015 9:08:39 GMT 12
The man holding the prop is definitely not Roger Porteous. I have pre-war photos of him, which are extremely like the person on the right in the group of three.
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exile01
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Post by exile01 on Jul 6, 2017 10:40:09 GMT 12
Some time ago I read up about the operation to Bonneuil Matours on 14 July 1944 (in the fascinating book "Operation Bulbasket" by Paul McCue). This Op was a reprisal raid against the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division (i.e. not a Gestapo unit - which to my knowledge weren't a military unit). The 17th SS Panzergrenadier had executed members of the SAS Bulbasket operation. There's further information about this in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bulbasket#Reprisal_attack_by_the_RAF).
Another interesting fact: it seems very likely that this raid included the earliest known tactical use of (a form of) napalm, which, if true, predates the supposed first use by several days (17 July 1944 on Coutances). The crews were warned not to talk about it. I have more information about this if anyone is interested.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 6, 2017 12:07:56 GMT 12
Yes please, do share more info exile01.
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exile01
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Post by exile01 on Jul 13, 2017 11:28:44 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
Here's my correspondence with Paul McCue while I was investigating the possible use of thickened petroleum jelly on the Bonneuil-Matours operation. I have corected a few minor spelling etc errors! I can recommend his book (see above), which was meticulously researched. --------------------------- Hello again
Christian's English is fair, if you can read French I would suspect that he would be happy to read your contact in English and reply in French. His email address is richardchris00@wanadoo.fr If you want to mention the newspaper editor - I believe I remember his name to be Roland Barrat. All best Paul
On 16 July 2011 00:27, Tracey Runciman <tracey_runciman@hotmail.com> wrote: Dear Paul, Thank you so much for such a prompt and thorough reply. In the meantime I have been reading your book and find it gripping, plain-spoken but even-handed. So far I have been reading largely the sections which describe the aerial support ops involving my father, but I shall back-track and read the whole narrative. I was again struck by the ages of those involved - but war always involves the young, at least in the front line. As far as napalm is concerned, this does seem indeed to have been the first tactical operational use; none of the (online) sources I have tracked down, including military histories, forum discussions, US veterans' memoir sites etc refers to an earlier date, including descriptions of Far East operations. For example, George Duncan's "Lesser-Known Facts of WWII" (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1944.html) has a section entitled FIRST USE OF NAPALM: "First used on July 17, 1944, when US P-38s attacked a fuel depot at Coutances, near St Lo. The next use of napalm was on April 15, 1945, when American bombers attacked the Atlantic coast town of Royan at the mouth of the Gironde. In the Pacific, napalm was used when US forces invaded the island of Tinian in the Marianas. It was also used in the bombing of Tokyo. This jellied fuel became the standard fuel explosive, later used widely - and notoriously - during the Vietnam War." By the way, one of the targets in the WWII campaign against Japan was TEPCO ... Incidentally, another source, the French V.R.I.D. website, contains lengthy descriptions of Operation Bulbasket, some of which I spent some time translating for my own use. Since receiving your book I have discovered that much of the V.R.I.D. content is a French translation of your work, word for word - at least I can now check the accuracy of my attempt! Thank you once again for your time and help. Tracey ps I intend to write to Christian in French; do you think that he would mind receiving a letter in English?
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:50:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Operation Bulbasket and the first use of 'napalm' From: paulmmccue@gmail.com To: tracey_runciman@hotmail.com
Dear Tracey As you say, it is a long time ago that I researched and wrote 'Bulbasket', so I am working from memory here. However, the following may help: 1) I suspect that my friend Christain Richard has used the same source - ie my book; that said, see 4) below for a variation on the theme; 2) I must have got the description of "M76 Phosphorous" from official RAF records of the time eg Group, Wing and Squadron Operational Record Books (ORBs). I can't think that there was any other source. But I could imagine that the RAF perhaps disguised their true content by this description - this was very much a "grudge" or "revenge" attack against the SS unit involved. As I say in the book, crews were briefed by AVM Embry and warned not to talk about the revenge element if shot down or captured; 3) I was told by one of the 464 RAAF Sqn crews involved that they later learned that they had dropped 'napalm'. They did not know at the time; 4) Perhaps the best material to support your reasoning......about 10 years ago the Sunday Express contacted me on the same subject. A journalist there had picked up the mention in my book, researched it further and had come to the definite conclusion that it was napalm. He had a courier come to pick up the photos I had of those involved and the article was supposed to appear two weeks later. Nothing happened and when I phoned up a month later, the journalist in question apologised and said his editor had 'spiked' the story. When I still hadn't received my photos back two months later, I wrote formally asking for their return. I eventually got them back - albeit not my originals, but copies that the Express had made. Stamped on the back of each was "Copyright of Express Newspapers". Not my best experience of the Press - especially when, a couple of years later I was at a reception in Bonneuil-Matours with the SAS Regimental Assoc. Pinned to the wall was an extensive French newspaper article with all my photos in it and the story of the use of napalm. As luck would have it, the retired editor of the newspaper in question was at the ceremony. I asked where the story had come from and he told me it have been sold to them, with the photos, by.......the Sunday Express. Christian Richard knew the editor well, so this, as well as 'Bulbasket', is likely to have been Christian's source. Incidentally, I recall that the Sunday Express journalist told me it was the first use of napalm in the WESTERN theatre of operations. He believed that the Americans had used these bombs on one previous occasion, in the Far East theatre, against the Japanese. I think that's about all I can add - hope it's of some use. Paul
On 14 July 2011 22:13, Tracey Runciman <tracey_runciman@hotmail.com> wrote: Dear Mr McCue,
I wonder whether you would care to comment on the likelihood that the operation against the SS troops at Bonneuil-Matours on 14 July 1944 constituted the first use of 'napalm' bombs in WWII.
I realise that it is now many years since you wrote "SAS Operation Bulbasket" (which I just received today and am looking forward to reading) and I'm not asking for detailed information. Rather I would like your opinion as an historian on a line of reasoning which, I believe, proves that a form of napalm was indeed used on that operation.
By way of background, there were several forms of petrol thickeners available at the time:
1. IM (isobutyl methacrylate) 2. Napalm, which incuded sodium (NA) palminate (which some argue is the derivation of the name, as well as other components, including IM), and 3. PT-1 (Pyrotechnic mix 1, also known as Pyrogel), which used magnesium powder and asphalt in addition to the other components of napalm
The distinction between the thickening agent itself and the final product (i.e. thickened petroleum jelly) has led to some confusion, but in common parlance the word "napalm" has come to mean any form of thickened petroleum jelly used in incendiary munitions. It is in this sense that I use the word.
In your book you mention that some of the Mosquitos were armed with American M76 phosphorous bombs, adding in a footnote that several of those involved later stated that these actually contained napalm. A French historian, Christian Richard, apparently also claims that these bombs contained napalm. I shall write to him soon, to ask for his reasons for making this claim.
I have approached this from a different angle, and have looked into the fillings which have been used in the M76 (properly the AN-M76):
Two authoritative American sources describe the M76 without any mention of phosphorous as a possible filling
1. The US Army’s Technical Manual (TM 3-400) refers to the AN-M76 as containing PT-1.
2. The history of the US Chemical Warfare Service (“The Chemical Warfare Service: From Laboratory to Field”, 1988, Brophy at al) mentions that the M76 could contain either IM or PT-1. Incidentally, the latter source is the only place where IM is mentioned in conjunction with the M76, All other source which I have been able to find mention either PT-1 or pyrogel, its trade name.
The facts are therefore these:
M76 bombs were used on this operation M76 contained either IM or PT-1, both forms of napalm (and definitely not phosphorous) M76 bombs were a new form of bomb (phosphorous had been around for some time) They were delivered by American troops on the night of the attack (they required careful handling) and The next documented use of napalm bombs (until now considered to be their first use) was on 17 July 1944 against Coutances (proving their availability at the time)
If I am right, lots of books and websites on the military history of napalm will need to be amended!
I would be very grateful for your opinion, if and when you can find the time, of course.
A personal reason for my interest is that my father was the pilot of one of the Mosquitos of 487 Squadron RNZAF which took part in three of the four operations documented by you, including the attack on the SS at Bonneuil-Matours, 65 (67 of course!) years ago today.
With best wishes,
Tracey Runciman ------------
Another minor point: the thickened petroleum jelly PT-1 (a.k. pyrogel) used in the bombs dropped on the Waffen SS contained magnesium powder, made and marketed by Kaiser Corporation as a means of selling the powdered magnesium produced by their proprietary (but inefficient) production process. The same Kaiser eventually started Kaiser Permanente.
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exile01
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Post by exile01 on Jul 13, 2017 11:34:04 GMT 12
ps the US use of 'napalm' during the invasion of the island of Tinian in the Marianas is an interesting footnote. Tinian became widely known as the base from which the USAF lauched the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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