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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 16:51:00 GMT 12
Bushmaster is far better wagon than the Mrap. The LAV/ Bushmaster is a far better combo. Mrap is ad hoc design where as the Bushmaster had a lot throught put into its design ie lessons learnt from the SADF Army during the bush war of the 70'-80's and the British Army in Nth Ireland
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 17:08:09 GMT 12
Bushmaster is far better wagon than the Mrap. The LAV/ Bushmaster is a far better combo. Mrap is ad hoc design where as the Bushmaster had a lot throught put into its design ie lessons learnt from the SADF Army during the bush war of the 70'-80's and the British Army in Nth Ireland
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 17:17:26 GMT 12
The LAV3 is somewhat under value by members of the public in NZ and it’s a shame those Infantry officers Army HQ’s didn't want/ or listen to those Armoured officers in the RNZAC Inspectorate office instead they try to disbanded it. As a result of these infantry Muppets and the current GG is one that stuff up entire NZDF forever.
The LAV’s do have weak point and Canauk’s and Ozzies are trying to fix it.
I understand the RNZAC Inspectorate office did look did look at the Bushmaster as uparmoured Pizines are dogs and it was a cheap way of keep the WAI/WEC and NZ Scots Armoured, but NZ Scots Sqn was disbanded in late 98 or early 99. 3 CAV Sqns RF (LAV) 2 APC Sqns TF (Bushmasters)
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 26, 2012 19:58:11 GMT 12
Thanks. I would think it be logical to purchase say 10 Bushmasters and even if don't get full use of them in Afghan would still be of service to the NZ Army in the future. I am sure that Afghanistan is not the last MEAO we will be operating in in some form. I think at AU$6 million (give or take a few) that it would be money wll spent and in the scheme of things is not a significant sum for the capability it would provide.
With regard to the current CG I understand that uncle helen changed the protocols and proceedures so that senior service & NZDF appoints come under the aegis of the State Services Commission. Given that statement I would have to that all appointments since then are politically tainted and that there will still be some at high levels who achieved such stratospheric levels because of Clarke, Goff, Mallard & Locke.
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 26, 2012 20:12:58 GMT 12
I disagree with your conclusions but as they are only based on press and social media commentary I can understand why you have reached them. I read other than press and social media, usually aviation, miltary, naval and security news services, magazines and literature. I sometimes use material from the press, rarely from social media and if I do, I usually say where I got it from or supply the link. I am trained as a geographer and I am very aware of sources and critiquing material I read. Sometimes there is information that I am aware of, which whilst technically may be in the public domain, I will not provide the source for confidentiallity reasons.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 26, 2012 20:55:01 GMT 12
First point, I agree with you there in regards to the 10 Bushmasters in fact I would go for 20 PMV's with half fitted with RWS either with 7.62mm or .50cal HMG. After the Gan ops transfer the fleet to Wai/Wec Sqn.
Your Second point I disagree, I know personally know Goff and I can say when I bump into him when I was on Op's when he was MOD. I extended an invite for cuppa and resulting chat about the state of the NZDF esp. current ops in the Gan. He went on to say a number UOR's/ or increase of the CE for the PRT was getting knocked back by cabinet, even when he was Foreign Minister and language he used was colourful in describe some people in Government. He was disgusted how Burton (a clueless f**k wit) left the Defence Force in, ie. projects that didn’t make much sense like C130 upgrade / cost over runs with Helo’s the list goes on as we all know. We should the finger at Helen, Burton, Locke, Mallard and the labour left.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 26, 2012 23:27:27 GMT 12
did the NZ Army lose any nurses in WWII on the lines or to enemy action? To answer my own question, this list of NZ girls killed in front line action in the North African and Italian campaigns is from the Official History "Medical Units of 2 NZEF in Middle East and Italy" New Zealand Army Nursing Service Sister A. M. Buckley Died on active service 24 Apr 1944 Sister A. S. Crampton Died on active service 20 May 1944 NZ WAAC Nurse F. Anderson Died on active service 19 Apr 1942 Nurse M. R. Burns Died on active service 13 Mar 1945 Nurse M. Greenfield Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Nurse M. Innes Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse M. E. I. Innes Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Nurse K. M. Joughin Died on active service 28 Nov 1943 Nurse M. O. McAnulty Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse P. A. Morrissey Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse M. J. Mortlock Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Quite a longer list than I had expected. It's sad to think they were all there simply to help others. RIP
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 26, 2012 23:47:05 GMT 12
That's interesting Dave. I wonder if any of the Tuis that Gen Freybergs wife, Lady Freyberg organised to go to Egypt and Italy behind the Division were ever wounded or KIA. I videoed a wedding in the Chch nurses chapel a few years back and that is the NZ memorial for all nurses KIA. Beautiful wooden interior. RIP & at the going down of the sun ......
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 27, 2012 0:10:31 GMT 12
Getting to back to the Bushmaster, I forgot to mention it has the same powerplant and drive train as NZLAV’s and ASLAV’s. I also have a photo of Dutch Bushmaster mounting a 40mm AGL on the main cupola and a L7A1/ MAG 58 on a swing mount at the rear hatch.
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Post by errolmartyn on Aug 27, 2012 0:41:51 GMT 12
did the NZ Army lose any nurses in WWII on the lines or to enemy action? To answer my own question, this list of NZ girls killed in front line action in the North African and Italian campaigns is from the Official History "Medical Units of 2 NZEF in Middle East and Italy" New Zealand Army Nursing Service Sister A. M. Buckley Died on active service 24 Apr 1944 Sister A. S. Crampton Died on active service 20 May 1944 NZ WAAC Nurse F. Anderson Died on active service 19 Apr 1942 Nurse M. R. Burns Died on active service 13 Mar 1945 Nurse M. Greenfield Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Nurse M. Innes Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse M. E. I. Innes Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Nurse K. M. Joughin Died on active service 28 Nov 1943 Nurse M. O. McAnulty Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse P. A. Morrissey Died on active service 21 Oct 1943 Nurse M. J. Mortlock Died on active service 7 Oct 1945 Quite a longer list than I had expected. It's sad to think they were all there simply to help others. RIP In WWII 'Died on Active Service' usually meant died of natural causes or some other cause not related to 'action' (where Killed in Action or Died of Wounds would normally be the term used. Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2012 10:29:38 GMT 12
Thanks Errol, that is interesting. I note the dates show three died on the 21st of October 1943, whilst three more died on the 7th of October 1945, and I wonder if they maybe died in ship sinkings or other accidents rather than disease or combat? I'll look into it and see what I can find.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2012 10:32:34 GMT 12
OK, according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission the six girls who died three at a time are buried in cemeteries so obviously not ship sinkings I don't think. They were buried at:
21 October 1943 MOASCAR WAR CEMETERY Innes, Mary (I wonder if she was related to Marie Innes below?) McAnulty, Margaret Olive Morrissey, Patricia Anne
7 October 1945 RENNES EASTERN COMMUNAL CEMETERY Greenfield, Margery Innes, Marie Elsie Isabel Mortlock, Margaret Jean
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Post by phil on Aug 27, 2012 11:13:35 GMT 12
Or could it be a case of the official cause of death being listed as died on active service because they were women, and and th govt of the day did not want to publically acknowledge that NZ women were being killed in action? Especially as they were officially non combatants.
Looking at the two dates, another possibility could be vehicle accidents. Clearly they didn't all pass away from illness on the same date.
It will be interesting to see if more information can be found out.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2012 11:30:10 GMT 12
I looked at the index of the Official History and no mention of their names within the text, so no explanantion there sadly. I wondered the same thing as to whether they may have been in truck or ambulance crashes. Of course we realise the second three died five months after the war in Italy ended too.
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Post by errolmartyn on Aug 27, 2012 13:02:35 GMT 12
OK, according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission the six girls who died three at a time are buried in cemeteries so obviously not ship sinkings I don't think. They were buried at: 21 October 1943 MOASCAR WAR CEMETERY Innes, Mary (I wonder if she was related to Marie Innes below?) McAnulty, Margaret Olive Morrissey, Patricia Anne 7 October 1945 RENNES EASTERN COMMUNAL CEMETERY Greenfield, Margery Innes, Marie Elsie Isabel Mortlock, Margaret Jean I'm now reminded that the tragic fate of the latter three is described in my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume Two: Fates 1943-1998): Supplementary notes - Postwar The following entries fall outside the criteria set down for the primary part of this work, but are presented here in chronological order as an addendum. Sat 6/Sun 7 Oct 1945 TRANSPORT COMMAND Special transport flight from Egypt to England. 299 Squadron, RAF (Shepherds Grove, Suffolk - 38 Group)Short Stirling IV LJ668 - took off from Egypt captained by Fg Off C T Dillon, RAF, bound for England, but diverted to Rennes, France, because of high fuel consumption. On entering the circuit difficulties were encountered with radio communication between aircraft and ground, whilst approach to the airfield was hampered by a 200-foot cloud base and inadequate airfield lighting. Although homed on to the correct runway and seen from the ground, the captain could not see the flarepath when at 150 feet. He carried out an overshoot, called at 0028 to advise he had only 10 minutes fuel left and immediately crashed while turning to port, and burned out. The six crew, eight RAF, two Navy and 10 Army passengers died, three New Zealanders being amongst the latter. All 26 are buried at Rennes. Passenger: 822452 Cpl Margery GREENFIELD, NZ WAAC - 31. Passenger: 814774 Sgt Marie Elsie Isabel INNES, NZ WAAC - Age 26. Passenger: 818051 Private Margaret Jean MORTLOCK, NZ WAAC - 24. Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2012 13:07:12 GMT 12
Thanks Errol.
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Post by ngatimozart on Aug 27, 2012 14:25:28 GMT 12
Getting to back to the Bushmaster, I forgot to mention it has the same powerplant and drive train as NZLAV’s and ASLAV’s. I also have a photo of Dutch Bushmaster mounting a 40mm AGL on the main cupola and a L7A1/ MAG 58 on a swing mount at the rear hatch. Well that would make even more sense then with that commonality between vehicles. Regarding my comments re your friend I was allowing my prejudices with reference to pollies of all stripes cloud my impartiality. EDIT: I've started another thread on general discussion about Afghanistan, MEAO and equip etc., just so we don't hijack this thread.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 27, 2012 20:01:19 GMT 12
Ngatimozart,
No worries mate you just own me a beer at senior rates mess at CHCH Navy Depot or at Papanui RSA when the Black Maffia (RNZAC) meets / or my dads old mate Stu Rankin
I'm going add one more photo my collection but if mod's want to take it down they my permission to do as its little bit to close home: Note Photo does not get shown all that often.
Note: Pablo over Kiwipolitico has been running a few good artilces on the Gan mission
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Post by exkiwiforces on Aug 27, 2012 20:33:23 GMT 12
What we have here are the remains of IED that went off wrecking a Bushmaster where the crew and troops were injured. The bottom big piece weighs about 2-3kgs and edges are razor sharp, the other above it about 1kg -2kgs and the top right and left pieces from what’s left of a 122mm Artillery rounds “note the drive bands”. They think total weight of this IED was about between 70kgs to 90kgs that hit the bushmaster, also they said if it had been any other MRAP type vehicle except for the pommy Massif there would have been a possible KIA and lesser vehicle like the up armoured hummer etc instant death. If I have offend anyone I’m sorry but I think had to show this photo and the Mods may have permission to remove this Photo. Attachments:
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 27, 2012 21:38:50 GMT 12
Getting to back to the Bushmaster, I forgot to mention it has the same powerplant and drive train as NZLAV’s and ASLAV’s. I also have a photo of Dutch Bushmaster mounting a 40mm AGL on the main cupola and a L7A1/ MAG 58 on a swing mount at the rear hatch. Close but not quite. Bushmaster and NZLAV have the same but not identical Cat engine but the ASLAV has a Detroit like our old M113s. You need to listen more in the D&M tech data lessons
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