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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 12, 2006 15:08:56 GMT 12
One of our TA-4K's landed on its droptanks at Ohakea once, there's an impressive film clip of it on Calum's site. One thing you may not know as it is not shown in the brief clip mentioned is that this TA-4K (formerly TA-4G 880) landed well before the runway arrestor wire thus the front of the drop tanks caught the wire (rather than the hook at rear). The crew were lucky that the arrestor wire did not ride up over the tanks and over the wing to threaten the crew area. Otherwise little extra damage was caused by the look of things. Don Simms has a video where more footage is shown of the landing (with practice approaches beforehand) with more views of the aftermath as described above. NAS Nowra had a portable mirror positioned at the end of the duty runway. This made it easy to do field arrested landings. And we practised with the field mirror every day, with concentrated practice at night before going out to the carrier. I don't believe the portable mirror was used or made available when the A-4Ks were at Nowra. It is not essential for field landings. Phil. |
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Post by beagle on Dec 12, 2006 18:33:40 GMT 12
Well you certainly shot me down there Dave.
Yeah, ok getting a bit older now, memory is fading, but are starting to think they might have tried it at an Open Day.
I wonder how many buddy tanks we had.
They probably talked about doing multiple tanking like that or more than 3 aircraft at "BRIDGE PARTIES "
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Post by beagle on Dec 12, 2006 18:42:20 GMT 12
This might sound a bit silly, but would it be possible if they had a buddy tank on wach of the wings, with a big tank on centre pylon, bring the first a/c in to fuel up and after plugging moves to the side a wee bit allowering more room for a second a/c to come and plug up at the same time.
Any ex 75 Sqn pilots on here reckon that is feasable, been done or a bit too much.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 12, 2006 18:46:48 GMT 12
"Tanker planning can be quite a complex operation, having to take into account offload, receiver tank space available",
Read just how complicated it is by reading "Vulcan 607. The detail is mind-boggling, in the number of tankers need to get one Vulcan that far south and back again. Some of the tankers had to refuel other tankers, and so on. The landing by the Vulcan,[ which couldn't be refuelled due to a broken probe],in Brazil is simply magnificent from a pilot's point of view.A fantastic bit of flying.
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Post by beagle on Dec 12, 2006 18:58:19 GMT 12
I remember reading and maybe seeing it on tv where an aircraft, cannot remember what type but he was loosing fuel big time and was not going to have enough to get back, so he lowered his hook and a F4 Phantom came up from behind and pushed him along. Not sure if he used his windshield or opened his refueling panel to grip the hook.
The first part of the story maybe wrong, ie the reason, anybody remember this.
It probably happened a few times.
Actualy coming to mind was the a/c that was shot in the wing or something during the falklands and got towed back to base by a herk refueller.
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Post by corsair67 on Dec 12, 2006 19:22:14 GMT 12
Alan, I believe this is the remarkable incident you refer to:
Pardo's Push.
It was March 10, 1967, in enemy skies over Hanoi. The last of 44 F-4 aircraft were just coming off a bombing raid into North Vietnam when Capt. Bob Pardo and his wingman Capt. Earl Aman were both hit by enemy fire. Aman's aircraft was the worse off. Hit by two damaging blows to the fuel tank, he suddenly was down to 2,000 pounds of fuel instead of the 7,000 pounds he needed to safely return to the refueling tanker.
Pardo knew he had to do something quickly if Aman was going to make it out. First, he tried to use Aman's drag chute to help the wounded Phantom. With the drag chute extended, Pardo tried to maneuver behind Aman's aircraft so he could use the drag chute compartment to push the aircraft toward the tanker. No good. Turbulence was too great.
Pardo decided to try to use the tailhook on Aman's aircraft. He moved in under Aman's aircraft and got the tailhook against the windscreen of his F-4 Phantom. Success. By this time, Aman's aircraft was so low on fuel that Pardo told him to shut down the engines. Pardo's push was working, but the two aircraft had to stay directly in line with one another. Pardo would push for 15 to 20 seconds, lose the necessary balance and slide off to the side. Then he'd have to reposition and push again. By now the pressure of Aman's F-4 aircraft was cracking the windscreen of Pardo's fighter. As the spider web of cracks grew, Pardo became increasingly concerned. He moved the hook down the windscreen into a small metal area below. The hook stayed put, and the push continued. To keep his own damaged Phantom flying, Pardo shut down one engine for the last 10 minutes of the flight.
After pushing Aman's aircraft almost 88 miles, the two damaged Phantoms reached friendly air space. At 6,000 feet, with practically no fuel left, the two pilots and their weapons systems officers parachuted to safety.
"That was one hell of an airplane," retired U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Bob Pardo recalled later. "For one aircraft to get two airplanes that far out of Vietnam speaks very well of the people who put it together."
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 14, 2006 9:28:54 GMT 12
This might sound a bit silly, but would it be possible if they had a buddy tank on wach of the wings, with a big tank on centre pylon, bring the first a/c in to fuel up and after plugging moves to the side a wee bit allowering more room for a second a/c to come and plug up at the same time. Any ex 75 Sqn pilots on here reckon that is feasable, been done or a bit too much. Not possible with the A-4 for a number of reasons: 1. The buddy store was too big and heavy to be carried on any of the wing stations. 2. The buddy store also required special fuel system plumbing and electrical connections which were only "plumbed and wired" on the centreline. 3. Also given the A-4's relatively small fuel capacity the amount available to transfer is not huge - really just a top up to a couple of aircraft and then return to base. 4. Also the distance between the wing stations on the A-4 is not great (total wing span is only 29ft!) so there is only room for one aircraft at a time to be plugged in behind. |
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 14, 2006 9:37:49 GMT 12
One point to add to all explanations so far is that any buddy refuelling done at high altitude is most effective for the relative small amount of fuel transferred compared to that same amount of fuel transferred at lower altitude. Don thanks for your answer about multiple buddy stores etc.
Phil.
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 14, 2006 14:56:01 GMT 12
USN ‘Naval Aviation News’ magazine had some articles about the new 300 US gallon drop tanks and buddy refuelling in 1958-59. These pages give a good overview of refuelling in the USN (& RAN). Phil.    |
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Post by mumbles on Dec 14, 2006 19:01:43 GMT 12
Never seen a Herk referred to as a 'GV-1' before. Must what they called it before all designations were standardised across the services in 1962. Or a typo  |
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 14, 2006 19:30:43 GMT 12
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 15, 2006 6:55:59 GMT 12
I should mention that the original prototype air-to-air refuelling probe location on the A-4 was in the nose of one of the wing mounted 300 gal drop tanks! I have seen a photo of it somewhere being tested - looked very strange having a long probe sticking out of the drop tank!
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Post by Barnsey on Dec 15, 2006 11:11:47 GMT 12
I believe we were looking at this system for probe and drogue refuelling for our F-16s, so that we could retain an in-house capability.  Current product development includes the qualification and testing of the Sargent Fletcher F-16 370-Gallon Aerial Refueling Tank/System (ART/S®). This unique concept is the product of the vast Sargent Fletcher experience in External Fuel Tank and Probe/Drogue Aerial Refueling systems design. The Sargent Fletcher 370-Gallon wing tank is modified to accept a retractable probe that will permit a F-16 aircraft to receive fuel from a Probe/Drogue-equipped SkyTanker. A proof of concept flight test was conducted to verify the compatibility of the design to the hoop-up loads. No fuel was transferred in this test. Instrumentation was installed to measure loads, deflection, and stiffness. The test confirmed the loads placed on the probe and the ease of hook-up including the compatibility of the system to several different tankers.
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Post by FlyNavy on Dec 15, 2006 11:26:04 GMT 12
Don, One refuelling test example is here: www.skyhawk.org/5e/g137812/html/137814p.htm“Circa 1955: refueling test Skyhawk BuNo 137814 with the Douglas Nav-Pak on the centerline and FJ Fury style refueling probe which has missed the basket.” Another view: www.skyhawk.org/5e/g137812/html/137814p1.htm“Circa 1955: refueling test Skyhawk BuNo 137814 with the Douglas Nav-Pak on the centerline and FJ Fury style refueling probe under the stbd wing.” Perhaps the angle of view of the photo you mention looked as if the probe came out of the tank when in fact it is as shown at above URL. I have seen a photo you mention - it is on page 31 of Jim Winchester’s ‘Douglas A-4 Skyhawk’ book. The photo is from Gary Verver and is likely to be found at his China Lake website. I will look there (same photo at URL below). www.chinalakealumni.org/IMAGES/1967/144947%20A-4B%2001AUG67%20CLK%20LHL-126100.jpgThe refuelling change was required to avoid problems with the Shrike missile. The caption of the photo claims the ‘cranked’ (bent) probe solved this problem. At the time we were told that the change (to bent probe) was to avoid fuel going directly into the engine intake from leaking refuelling baskets. Maybe both answers are true. Phil. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 19, 2006 13:09:29 GMT 12
Just a snippet of info.
According to the RNZAF Assoc. News from Spring 1987, when the 101 Squadron RAF VC-10 tanker visited for the RNZAF's 50th Anniversary, there were also trials carried out by RNZAF aircrfat in air to air refuelling (I assume A-4's only?)
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Post by mumbles on Dec 19, 2006 16:19:44 GMT 12
Just a snippet of info. According to the RNZAF Assoc. News from Spring 1987, when the 101 Squadron RAF VC-10 tanker visited for the RNZAF's 50th Anniversary, there were also trials carried out by RNZAF aircrfat in air to air refuelling (I assume A-4's only?) There's a picture of it on pg83 of 'Topped Gun', along with the intriguing comment that "Having been engaged in the procedure since 1970, the RNZAF A-4 'drivers' apparently regarded the briefing they were given by the RAF as 'rather basic'." |
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