No. 75 Squadron - myth or reality?

[Dave Homewood]

Wikipedia's page on No. 75 Squadron has some statements on it that I wonder if can be clarified, confirmed or denied.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._75_Squadron_RNZAF

First up is this sweeping statement - is this correct? I've heard it said before, and also heard it denied, does anyone have the truth?

"75 Squadron RNZAF was a bomber squadron which flew more sorties and suffered more casualties than any other in the World War II European theatre"
And
"The squadron flew more sorties than any other RAF heavy bomber unit, and suffered more casualties than any other squadron. It dropped the second-largest weight of bombs."

I can understand it if it were true as the squadron was active from the beginning to the end of the war. But, is it in fact correct?

Now...
"A Vampire FB Mk.5 in 75 Squadron colours is at the Museum of Transport and Technology (MoTaT) in Auckland together with a De Havilland Mosquito formerly used by the squadron, which is under restoration."

Firstly the Motat Vampire only ever served as an instructional airframe with the RNZAF in NZ as far as I'm aware. It had previously flown in Singapore with No. 14 Sqn RNZAF, but I'm fairly certain it has no 75 Sqn history or markings, has it?

As for the Mosquito, everything I've read about Motat's Mossie is it arrived from Australia in 1947 and went into storage at Ohakea till it was sold in 1953. Did it in fact have an operational career with the squadron at any time?


This below is something I'd never heard of, the markings thing. Is it true? Did they all fly that way, as implied?

"A Kahu Skyhawk preserved at Ohakea also carries 75 Squadron colours on one side, the other being in 2 Squadron colours. This is the authentic scheme used by later RNZAF aircraft to simplify rotation of aircraft between the squadrons - although the aircraft itself is a new machine assembled from spares, and never saw service."

This bit I am not disputing...

"In recognition of their wartime record, in October 1946 the RAF officially handed over the 75 Squadron title and badge to the RNZAF. This is the only occasion that the RAF has “gifted” a Squadron title and badge to another Commonwealth Air Force."

... but I wonder, did 75 Squadron RAF previously have its own Squadron badge from WWI or the 1937-39 period, before it became a NZ squadron and adopted the Tiki badge? If so, has anyone got a picture of it? Also, does anyone know if any Kiwis served in the pre-1939 squadron at any time?

[lesterpk]

The latest colour scheme Skyhawks did indeed carry 2Sqn and 75Sqn markings on either side. 75 on the left, 2 on the right.
I have photos from the "Last Day" that shows it clearly.
Les.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Les. I wonder, was this practice only taken up after the announcement that the squadrons were to retire?

[phasselgren]

From the book Royal Air force Bomber Command - Squadron Profiles 75 (NZ) Squadron by Chris Ward:

2nd highest number of overall operations in Bomber Command
Highest number of sorties in Bomber Command
5nd highest number of bombing operations in Bomber Command
3rd highest number of mining sorties in Bomber Command
2nd highest number of aircraft operational losses in Bomber Command
(Statistics for heavy squadrons)

[phil]

lesterpk said:

The latest colour scheme Skyhawks did indeed carry 2Sqn and 75Sqn markings on either side. 75 on the left, 2 on the right.
I have photos from the "Last Day" that shows it clearly.
Les.

This is correct, and it came in with the introduction of the all over green scheme in 1997, with 2 sqn on one side of the tail and 75 sqn on the other. The three tone scheme was more varied. The initial intention was probably to have have only one sqn marking at a time, but certainly in my time on 75 this did not always happen. Some aircraft had both the 2 sqn markings on the fin, and the 75 sqn markings on the intake sides, some aircraft had one or the other, and they did tend to change as the aircraft rotated. It was not uncommon to have a patch of freshly touched up paint on the aircraft sides when they came back from Nowra.

To call the T bird at the museum a Kahu skyhawk is also stretching things a bit far, I doubt there are many components in that frame that are specifically kahu, it's really just cobbled together from bits of Fs (blue angels fuse for example) and a few old K parts, the tail is copied from a kahu airframe (in fibreglass!). The radome is probably one of the few kahu parts used.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Peter and Phil, fascinating stuff. So a lot of Wikipedia is right, some is wrong.

I find it a little mindboggling that a modern peacetime air force could be so lax on its squadron markings. It doesn't matter operationally of course, but it seems a little irregular.

[phil]

Priorities I suppose, and asthetics wasn't really one of them. Hence they looked so patchy towards the end of the three tone scheme.

[skyhawkdon]

phil said:

lesterpk said:

The radome is probably one of the few kahu parts used.

The Ohakea Museum T-bird (including paint scheme) is representive of a late 1980's pre Kahu TA-4K. The only variation on the paint scheme is the dual squadron markings on the fin. It was decided to put both Squadrons on there as a tribute to both units post ACF disbandment. It is somewhat ironic that most of the work done on the museum aircraft was done by AMS personnel and not current 2 and 75 Sqn personnel, although most would have worked on the Squadrons at some stage! The radome is a genuine pre Kahu item. Cheers Don

[phil]

You mean the suppliers hadn't disposed of it??

Unbelievable, they smash up and throw out all the things we need, but keep a pre kahu radome for all those years.....

[skyhawkdon]

It was one of the many pre Kahu Avionics items I saved in the mid 1990's and gave to the Ohakea Museum (a long time before they had a complete aircraft). There were 2 large shipping containers full of pre Kahu parts that sat outside the Ohakea Main Store for years. One day we were told they were going to the scrap man the next day and we could take what we wanted from them for "instructional purposes". The only problem was we had to unpack the containers first to see what was in them and most parts were still wrapped and boxed (there were thousands of items!).

I was gobsmaked at what they were throwing out - half of the stuff was still very much in use post Kahu! Most of it was brand new and had come from the RAN A-4 buy and had never been properly sorted and codified (all the boxes and little sealed bags had Kangaroo stickers on them).

The nose section and radome now on the museum TA-4 was one of the items being thrown out. I "saved" as much as I could in the time we had to go through the containers, but we only scratched the surface of what was in them. I hate to think what was thrown out. I pleaded with the Supply Officer to give us more time to go through them properly but was told to sod off - they were going to the scrap dealer tomorrow!

All of the pre-Kahu avionics kit removed from all 21 aircraft was there - I grabbed 2 complete set of instruments and instrument panels (one set now in the Ohakea Museum and the other went to Wigram). I grabbed a couple of Skyhawk gunsights (one is now fitted to NZ6257 and the other is part of a cabinet display in the museum) - I could have had the whole lot if I had wanted them!

The same thing happened to the Strijkemaster gunsights - I was NCO i/c the Instrument Bay in 1994 and supply brought in a box of gunsights and said they had been told to put a sledge hammer through the lot and did I want any! I saved 2 sets - one is now in the Ohakea Museum Blunty and the other set I sent to Wigram for their one.

I would put money on it that when they finally "scrap" the Skyhawk spares a whole lot of useful stuff will go out with it such is the state of the Air Force Supply system. We should form a syndicate and buy it all - and then sell it back to them when they figure out they still need it! We could also sell it on Trade Me and e-bay! There are plenty of Skyhawk parts for sale on E-bay, including complete aircraft.

[phil]

There are rolls of danco tape, tie wraps, AN-xx bolts that are used on every thing under the sun in that disposal package, and we can't touch any of it.

They codified PMBRs as A4 role equipment for disposal, (despite the fact it has been Orion role equipment for years as well) and every time we need something we have to jump through hoops because it is 'part of the sale'. Last time I tried to get something I was told 'that's macchi stuff, you can't have it....' I mean macchi??? they were never carried on the bloody macchis! Fortunately we have come to an understanding now.

We have the same problem with Maverick parts for the Seasprites, they were all codified as ACF and we can't use them.

But the funniest thing I ever came accross was when we still had the seat bay. When the macchis were purchased all the incredibly expensive Martin Baker tooling came with the seats. Now for some reason the seat bay wasn't allowed any, apparently it was too expensive or some rubbish, so what the guys did is sign it all out on loan from supply, get the machinists to make copies, and then returned it to supply. Now the copies were ok, but not really up to the job. One day I got a call from supply that they were getting rid of a whole lot of MB tools they had in stock that hadn't been used in years, and did the seat bay want it? Well I went down there and grabbed the whole lot (along with a few 'ejection seat' hammers and ROEs that were in the same box). This was in about 2000, so for the last 18 months or so the seat bay actually had the correct tools. These tools were paid for as part of the package, but due to some inane internal accounting system, the user unit couldn't get them, and they sat unused for the best part of a decade while we used home made tools.

I wish I'd kept them, since they were written off and disposed of (to me) and I kindly donated them to the seat bay, I guess I would have been quite ok to pack them all up and take them with me.

[Dave Homewood]

I had forgotten how awkward the supply system was. It really did seem sometimes they were not part of the RNZAF, but more a department of Treasury set up to deliberately pull in the other direction instead. Often their regulations were mindboggling bizarre. And their computer system we had to use for ordering when I was in was incompatable with ALIS which caused many a headache. Almost everything had to be ordered AOG or you'd never see it within the month. Total clowns.

It's a damn good job you guys were present at the right place and time to save what you could. Regarding the pre-Kahu stuff going to a scrap dealer, surely if the RNZAF is to sell stuff for scrap there's a tender process, and in that process the acual squadrons and units should have been given due notice long before the scrap dealer was chosen. A day's notice is simply appaulling.

[phil82]

I don't want to be too hard on the Suppliers, I knew quite a few and they too were victims of the system, but there were some amusing anecdotes! The Clothing Store at Ohakea for example, never seemed to be open at any time you could get there, and there were always the examples of items being'out of stock" when they were in stock but couldn't be issued because they "might be required for an issue". I recall attending one Dining-out of a Pilot who recited a very interesting career, but who collapsed his audience with laughter by finishing with what he considered to be the highlight; "I went to the Flying Clothing Store and it was actually open". I also recall the Andovers entering service, and there were truckloads of spare parts arriving from the UK, including complete replacement engines. One such engine was delivered to store at a time an Andover was AOG awaiting an engine change, but stores couldn't issue it directly to Ohakea until they got a spare for stock-holding! Incredible, but it happened. Also incredible as it may seem today, but your bedding issue include two sheets and two pillowcases, but you could only exchange one of each per week for clean ones! There were obviously ways and means around that, and I can say they I always had two clean sheets, but the ruling was one! If it's any consolation, the RAF was worse!

There were other examples which were quite ludicrous at the time, like all Herc and Orion engine parts were at Te Rapa, when all the aircraft were at Whenuapai!

[phil]

Try ordering 2m of electrical wire to make a wiring loom containing a 1.8m piece of wire and see what you get.

It's issued by the metre....yep, you stand an even chance of getting two 1 metre lengths. This really still happens, happened to me a few months ago.

Perhaps I'm supposed to twist the ends together?

Of course techs stuff things up sometimes too - never, ever order 30 rivets.

Rivets come by the kilo....

Phone rings...'hello is this the carrier bay? Hi, we've got 8kgs of rivets here in mainstore, but we've had to order the other 22 kgs from America, they said they will do a special run for us and get them on the plane next week'

That one wasn't me either, I might add.

Sometimes even the suppliers fall for that one, like the supplier at WB, who ordered from the factory, 500 rivets.....

Fortunately we don't have a clothing store any more, we have a sizing store, and then you just order whatever you want online, and it turns up a few days later from YASL.

[Dave Homewood]

I found in general almost every Barrack Warden was always the grumpiest sod on base, wherever you went. No matter what day, time or whatever. I recall a particular run-in with one at Ohakea when my course and I were on detachment there. He was a total smeghead on a power trip.

I soon found most people who lived on base washed their own sheets, and so did I just to avoid the w*nkers they call Barrack Wardens. I'm sure the supply system filters their worst into that role.

One the other hand, some suppliers were awesome people, and as Colin says, were victims of their own system. I knew a few really good guys in Supply who were generally always helpful.

One great man I got to know well and respect was Laurie Sadler, Camp Pack Up Warden from Wigram. He'd been a supplier for years and knew all the ins and outs of the system. He'd originally been in the SAS and had fought in Vietnam. By the time I knew him in the 1990's he was a GSH, a lowly rank but one that commands great respect due to their immense experience.

One other supplier at Wigram I recall got his leg cut off at the knee by a forklift at Harewood. Amazingly the RNZAF kept him in and he continued to work in stores with one and a half legs. He was a nice young chap too but I can't recall his name (except after the accident he was known to all as Hoppy).

The thing that really irked was hearing so often about jobs on aircraft where every section from avionics to engine bay to S&S had worked their guts off to repair and service an AOG aircraft, only to have it then sit two or three more days while Supply sorted out their internal paperwork. The system needed a huge boot up the 'arris, I hope it's been done now.

So often our computer system would tell us Supply had multitudes of something in stock, but they'd then say they didn't have them.

I recall the incompatability of the two systems, ALIS was our computer system (it was total rubbish in those days and made paperwork three times as long as before computers). I cannot recall the original Supply computer system, but it had its faults too. We had to order stock through ALIS, which sent via walking pace email the message to the Supply computer which seemingly scrambled it and five minutes later you always got a phonecall from Supply asking what you'd ordered. Let's just say the computers were the middle men in all this.

I once ordered a box of 50 rubber bands. Supply computer interpreted this as 50 boxes of rubber bands. When they came we had eveidence that I had not stuffed up, that the supply computer had. But they wouldn't take them back due to acrue accounting (yes, another of those wastes of spaces that the higher ups forced on the workers). So the bands, which had a shelf life for the purpose intnded, were mostly wasted on rubber band balls and slingshots. Congratulation ladies and gentlemen, the supply system wasting your tax payers money yet again.

[Dave Homewood]

Phil, what's YASL?

Is that some civil contracted designer label?

[Bruce]

Reading in the "Golden age of Flying boats" there is a story there about the old Singapore flying boats at lauthala Bay. Bombing these up while on the water was a dodgy business involving 4 people standing in a dinghy and lifting a 500lb bomb into place under the wing (!) as the bomb winches didnt seem to have come with the aircraft. Eventually the armourers jury rigged some form of winch based on sketches sent from the UK. However as the last Singapore was being broken up and the spares holdings sorted out, a storeman enquired of the serving unit commander if these items were of any use - they've never been issued.... You guessed it, Singapore bomb winches. I have heard stories that in the 1980s Te Rapa continued to receive regular shipments of Corsair inner tubes - the shelf stock expired so they had to be replaced!
Yes the Stores system is legendary - mind you its a drama to get anything purchased through the system at the University where I work as well!

[Dave Homewood]

Actually Bruce a whole shipload of spares for the Singapores turned up in Fiji just after they'd been withdrawn and the unit disbanded, due to lack of spares! Yes, a great example but at least they had the excuse of "There is a war on."

I recall being told by some PTS guys about some wiring clips used in the Airtainers that when they broke and needed replacing, Pacific Aerospace was charging $50.00 per clip. When a mechie discovered this he went into town and found the same clips at Dick Smiths' for 50c each. Supply actually did the right thing, got them certified and allowed local purchase of these items. All they did was keep certain wires from draping on other items. PAC had been selling these to the RNZAF for at least 20 years. Must have seen them coming, eh!

[phil82]

There was a classic case of some aircraft on an exercise operating away from Ohakea, and for the purpose of the exercise the aircraft were coded as "Teacups". If an aircraft became u/s or was 'lost in action', they were to signal OH and order replacement Teacups, which they did, and which is precisely what OH sent them! A box of teacups.

[SEAN]

Wow what is this.... pick on the Supplier week....

When will you people learn [glow=red,2,300]SUPPLIERS ARE GOD[/glow]...

We all take lessons on how to piss Tech'os off, it is part of our training..... The sooner people learn that you have to nice to someone that you want something off, the sooner you will get what you want... well maybe....

I guess all trades have their own stories, I could mention the techo in the early 80's that washed a P3 and left the cockpit windows open. Even a supplier knows water and avionics do not mix....

The stories from Te Rapa were true, there were all sorts of things there in the early 80's pre computer. My find was a P40 prop swinging table that went to the museum. Other finds I remember were fabric for wings etc, numerous old instruments, and a vampire NLG, and that was just the site I was in.

From my perspective Supply has changed greatly from the trade I joined in 1980 to what it is today, yep we still have issues, as I am sure all trades do. I think it is pretty safe to say that most of the "grumpy old buggers" that were around in the old days have left now, and we all pull together to get the job done. I think all the recent deployments of late have seen us come together in ways I admit that I once never envisaged. There honestly used to be quite a divide been Supply and the Techs, and there were some techs that we did used to go out of our way to piss off, because of previous comments / actions made.

It was like you never pissed off the cooks, because they cooked you food, and I have personally seen one officers steak being "marinated" that hacked the cook off. Also you should be nice to the Airmovements guys, as you may get where you want, but your bags wont.

I am sure these things don't happen now, as things are now quite different for us as a trade. We don't do Barrack Warden anymore (contracted out), we don't look after clothing anymore(except flying & safety) (contracted out), we don't look after consumables (contracted out), we don't look after stationery (contracted out) which means we now concentrate on looking after our various platforms, and as we are now actually located (in some cases) in the same office as the Techo's the sort of issues in the past, I feel have gone..... which is all good and positive. We do now know what a customer is.

But suppliers are still god.....