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Post by yogi on Jul 10, 2010 20:53:13 GMT 12
If a country is willing to launch an all out invasion of NZ (which is NOT going to happen), then having a very small fleet of old F-16s is not much of a 'deterence' like many have suggested. Let the RAAF and USN provide the air power, while the NZDF sorts out its priorities, and right now an ACF is not one. Everyone has shared I feel I should also even though what i have to add has probably already been put forward. ;D I feel having a small fleet of f-16s would be a deterrence to anyone planning an all out sea and air invasion of N.Z or at the very least it would be a threat they would have to counter. Lets expand on this a wee bit though, thinking logically, no nation would be able to amass an invasion force huge enough to invade new zealand without it being noticed by someone we are allied with, once noticed its more than likely defensive capability would be hastily ramped up by considerable amounts. I mean once the infrastructure is in place for an acf and trained pilots are easily on hand its only a matter of aquiring more air craft, (I am simplifying a complicated thing like aircraft aquisition i know, but in a pinch like is being suggested i am sure it would happen) This is a scenario that any military planner would have to allow for and divert necessary asset to counter as countries dont just invade countries on a whim. Theres one slightly out of the box deterrence for you. Just having a small fleet of f-16's with highly trained pilots could potentially do a massive amount of damage to a seaborne invasion force. One lost troop ship could mean the difference between success and defeat to this imaginary foe. But like has already been stated we didnt have an acf to repel invaders we had it because we need to pull our weight and in my view be capable to provide effective air cover for our own troops. (A fleet of lavs with no air cover whats with that!?)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 11, 2010 14:46:03 GMT 12
I think one point about the way the RNZAF operated with just two squadrons of attack jets was that because they were required to really pull their weight in protecting NZ, they became far more proficient at the role than pilots in an air force that might have 40 squadrons covering the same amount of coastline. The kiwi pilots and their ground staff were absolutely awesome, and they proved that time and again. Truly an elite force.
I guess NZ's best defence now if an invasion fleet suddenly appears on the horizon is to take all the inmates from our overcrowded prisons to the invasion beaches, give them a rifle, ammunition and a quantity of methamphetamine, and tell them the men in the ships said they were pussies. It will solve either one problem or another, possibly both.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Jul 11, 2010 15:08:18 GMT 12
Now why did i not think of that
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Post by yogi on Jul 11, 2010 15:41:33 GMT 12
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Post by timmo on Jul 12, 2010 11:01:55 GMT 12
I guess NZ's best defence now if an invasion fleet suddenly appears on the horizon is to take all the inmates from our overcrowded prisons to the invasion beaches, give them a rifle, ammunition and a quantity of methamphetamine, and tell them the men in the ships said they were pussies. It will solve either one problem or another, possibly both. haha....that should have been added to the white paper
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Post by planecrazy on Nov 2, 2016 19:25:23 GMT 12
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Post by skyhawkdon on Nov 5, 2016 8:19:33 GMT 12
Some great ideas there! Still makes me sad thinking about the whole thing though...
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Post by bell407 on Nov 9, 2016 16:38:25 GMT 12
Old thread I know. but at the top of the page there is mention that a small fleet of F-16's wouldn't be much of a deterrence. The point however is lost. It isn't just about our small fleet of F-16's being a deterrence. It's about our ability to be able to upgrade to newer, more capable platforms as technology progresses as well as having the technological skills and experience in operating and flying fast combat jets. Even if we were gifted 2 squadrons of F-35's or F-18's or F-16's or whatever and they arrived in NZ tomorrow it would take a year or more before we could achieve IOC and a bit longer for FOC with them, because that skill set, of maintaining and operating and managing in the air complex and technically advanced killing machines to the required levels of proficiency would take a very long time to regain. It would have been easier and cheaper and safer to go from A-4 to F-35 as apposed to going from nothing to F-35 and we would have gone from A-4 to F-16 to whatever the 16's would be getting replaced with right about now.
Also as well as what Yogi said said at the top of the page, that it is also about us being able to pull our weight and do our bit in the Pacific if called upon to assist Aussie as well as other theaters around the World.
I think the attitude that "Oh we're being attacked. Oh well, we'll get Australia and the US to put their pilots and expensive jets on the line to defend us cause we couldn't be bothered to even try do it ourselves" is a bit of a cheek. Why should they help us and who's gonna make them?
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Post by skyhawkdon on Nov 9, 2016 20:05:08 GMT 12
Given the outcome of the US election this topic may become a relevant one again for NZ! If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more then we have some work to do!
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Post by isc on Nov 9, 2016 21:12:34 GMT 12
He'll probably send the Skyhawks back, claiming they are unwanted immigrants. isc
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Post by thelensofhistory on Nov 9, 2016 22:09:34 GMT 12
Given the outcome of the US election this topic may become a relevant one again for NZ! If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more then we have some work to do! I have been thinking the same for awhile. NZ may be finally forced to adopt a sound defence strategy build around Air and Sea Power.
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 10, 2016 1:05:34 GMT 12
. . . If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more . . . An interesting opinion . . . from a draft dodger no less! Errol
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Post by Mustang51 on Nov 10, 2016 6:58:05 GMT 12
Things in the South China Sea may start to get a lot warmer me thinks.......... and nothing to do with Global Warming !
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Post by ZacYates on Nov 10, 2016 9:10:09 GMT 12
On the bright side, those flight simulation "skins" posted earlier have made me - for the first time in my life - want to buy an F-16 model so I can give a Kiwi one a decent crack! I did one earlier but it was just to get rid of one in my stash and is a tad more fanciful.
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Post by flyinkiwi on Nov 10, 2016 9:54:05 GMT 12
Given the outcome of the US election this topic may become a relevant one again for NZ! If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more then we have some work to do! Officially NZ is a friend of the USA and not an ally. But I do agree that some change in the defense relationship is going to happen. Just what that will be is anyone's guess.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Nov 10, 2016 11:02:40 GMT 12
I hope 1 Aerodrome Construction Sqn is still on the ORBAT as we will need them to assist in building the wall around our coastline to keep the nasties out. We could even offer military assistance to construct a few kms along the Mexico border.
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Post by bell407 on Nov 15, 2016 15:10:45 GMT 12
He'll probably send the Skyhawks back, claiming they are unwanted immigrants. isc Won't happen, the A-4's entered the country legally.
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Post by isc on Nov 15, 2016 21:21:02 GMT 12
Bother. isc
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Post by ZacYates on Nov 16, 2016 8:20:07 GMT 12
Plus they were born in the US, so they're citizens!
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Post by snafu on Nov 19, 2016 15:27:27 GMT 12
Given the outcome of the US election this topic may become a relevant one again for NZ! If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more then we have some work to do! Given the outcome of the US election this topic may become a relevant one again for NZ! If Trump expects the US allies to pull their weight more then we have some work to do! I have been thinking the same for awhile. NZ may be finally forced to adopt a sound defence strategy build around Air and Sea Power. Given the recent release of the NZDCP and I quote the DCP " These planned increases would see Defence spending at an average of around 1% of Gross Domestic Product out to 2030. " doesn't leave me with much enthusiasm to the long term capabilty of NZ. Even with additional pressure from Washington and Canberra Aunty Helen's long term commitments to slashing capability seems to be the norm now for NZDF. I would not at all be surprised that because of expense of new kit and the recent earthquake in NZ South that it could be the death or P8 with a more cheaper MPA, I think that Anzac replacement will still happen with a less sophisticated ASW capability KDX family of ships from South Korea anyone?
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