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Post by trx850 on Dec 25, 2012 18:06:31 GMT 12
trx850, in your first photo it is possible the white stripe on the aileron is there, just that the aileron is in the up/left wing down/roll left position. Can you do a close up of that part of the wing? Hi scrooge. As requested, an enlargement from the pic with Geoff Fisken in front of the 'Cat'. Cheers, Pete M.
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Post by alanw on Dec 25, 2012 21:59:05 GMT 12
www.ww2color.com/nennius/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=09225The issue that's being overlooked is that by rigidly adhering to the belief that aircraft were only ever painted in Olive Drab/Neutral Gray OR Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky is that in the group photo of 14 squadron, 3060 "9" has: 1. Higher contrast between the upper surface colours 2. A much lighter under surface colour. I agree, that particular airframe was US painted "RAF Equivalent" camo colours. Remember the aircraft in in the same frame, so the only explanation for this is that the rest of the squadron is painted in different colours. Remember though, that both RAF camoed and USAAF version OD/NG aircraft could serve on same squadronI think 3060 is painted in US equivalents RAF Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky. I started looking through the Jeffery Ethell collection and I found the photos I was looking for of aircraft based at Adak, these were painted in what appears Dark Earth/Dark Green/Neutral Gray www.ww2color.com/nennius/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=08166www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=06451Bear in mind that the US actualy requisitioned some Lend Lease aircraft back into the US Forces due to aircraft shotages, and to my understanding repainted al least the lower part in Neutral Grey at the factory.
Note this photo link, RAF Mustang - appears to have a light grey lower -in reality is Sky. Note also the far Mustang in RAF colours wearing a USAAF Star -Requesitionedi164.photobucket.com/albums/u20/davejr-photos/2-18_zps8654e51f.jpgThen I found this one: www.ww2color.com/nennius/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=09228It appears to be Olive Drab/Dark Green/Neutral Gray. An Olive Drab/Dark green would be a good explanation for the lower contrast of the upper surface colours don't you think? You need to remember that for a period of time USAAF aircraft wore Olive Drab/ Neuatral Grey with Mid Green paint "Spotches" (for want of a better word). Generally this would be along leading/ Trailing edges and on parts of fuselage. This P 39 has such a paint schemeen.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P-39N.jpgI'm quite certain the P 40 being serviced by the US Ground crew is painted as such. I also believe that RNZAF P 40's received in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey, had the mid green also.
I will be painting my next P-40 in this combination as I feel these are the correct colours unless someone can come up with evidence to the contrary. Another thing to remember is that paint schemes viewed in one light can appear different in another light For Example the MOTAT P 40 - This photo note Blue/Green colour Now same day (few moments actually) same colour but in the shade - not the more 'Grey" tone Kerry if you decide to paint an RNZAF P 40 (M-N) in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey with the mid green you won't be wrong Regards Alan
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 14:45:51 GMT 12
Yes, Light, film, exposure etc do play a part if the photos are not taken from the same camera on the same frame, but in this image they are taken on the same angle, on the same frame of film (source: RNZAF official):
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Post by alanw on Dec 26, 2012 21:24:05 GMT 12
Hi Kerry Re the two photos above two different "M" versions The higher photo "28" Possible camouflaged, I have seen RNZAF P 40's in Camouflage with the straight lower paint line (apart from the P 40E's) as in this link i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/img219.jpgBut could just a well be Olive Drab/ Neutral grey with Medium Green patches (per my comments in yellow above) Note the lower photo "9" Certainly is Camouflaged and I find it interesting that it has the "Wavy) lined lower colours which I certainly believe in US RAF version of Sky (DuPont). In all honesty the best parctice would be to have a Photo of the aircraft you wish to model. We know the "E" versions of the P 40 in 1942 were camouflaged, we also know that that initial versions of the "M" models were also camouflaged. We also know later "M" versions were in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey. Just remember in the forward Operational areas (the Islands), in the mid to latter part of the war in the Pacific, Olive Drab and Neutral Grey and Medium Green would have been in more plentiful supply than the DuPont Camouflage colors, to the RNZAF Servicing Units. Regards Alan
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Post by scrooge on Dec 27, 2012 9:21:26 GMT 12
Thanks, was considering the possibility of the aileron being 'up' in the first photo and thus the lower surface not actually being visible to the viewer from that angle.
Certainly clearer in the photo in post #20. Could also be an aileron of another aircraft or out of stores- so a different paint scheme anyway.
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Post by dewobz on Feb 21, 2013 11:43:13 GMT 12
I'm continuing this thread rather than begin a new one because I am about to build NZ3072 in 1/32 scale - after her second cowling repair - for a client and we've been discussing camouflage using this thread as ammunition (if you will). Rob sent me this photo (courtesy of Charles Darby). I believe it to be of P-40N-1s (with M canopy) NZ3136[M] and NZ3144 probably at Torokina. Without studying it in great depth Rob took it to be evidence of an Olive Drab repaint not including the lower cowl where the code letter is. I looked at it for ages and did alot of zooming in. What I see is a disrupted camo pattern with colour demarcation lines though decidedly subtle ones. Check the upper cowl above and around the exhausts, just below the windscreen, just forward of centre on the fuselage roundel and behind the roundel-bar? What do others think? I'm very interested in building Wairarapa Wildcat with a delivery scheme of OD & US Dk Green or US Med Green or US Green 42 over Neutral Grey and then whatever colours might have been applied to the two cowling repairs. To me this photo is possible evidence of even later disrupted camo pattern on RNZAF P-40Ns. Wally.Attachments:
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Post by Luther Moore on Feb 21, 2013 12:08:02 GMT 12
Very nice work.
What happened to this plane?
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Post by dewobz on Feb 21, 2013 14:46:22 GMT 12
adf serials says, "Sold to J Larsen at Rukuhia on 2 March 1948".
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 21, 2013 15:43:47 GMT 12
In best Warrant Officer's voice, "THAT MAN!!! Yes you, on the right! What does you think you is doing lighting a bloody cigarette between two of my aircraft!!! "
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Post by dewobz on Feb 21, 2013 17:04:37 GMT 12
Okay ... and on what has become the topic of this thread ... disrupted camo pattern or no? Perhaps it's already been fully covered? I like Alan's comment -
Kerry if you decide to paint an RNZAF P 40 (M-N) in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey with the mid green you won't be wrong
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 21, 2013 17:30:34 GMT 12
I think that something that has been overlooked by the modellers is that when No. 14 Squadron flew their shiny new olive drab (?) P-40K's from Whenuapai up to Espiritu Santo, they handed them over to No. 15 Squadron who were the first to go into action. In return they received No. 15 Squadron's mix of ex-Tonga P-40E's which were ex-USAAF, and No. 14 Squadron retained only a small number of the new P-40K's and P-40M's. I am sure this could be one source of the brown/green camouflage aircraft used by the squadron.
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Post by alanw on Feb 21, 2013 19:55:40 GMT 12
Okay ... and on what has become the topic of this thread ... disrupted camo pattern or no? Perhaps it's already been fully covered? I like Alan's comment - Kerry if you decide to paint an RNZAF P 40 (M-N) in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey with the mid green you won't be wrong Hi Wally Both the aircraft serials you mention were delivered in July 1943. Given that the aircraft are Lend Lease, they more than likely wore Olive Drab(ANA 613)/Neutral Grey(ANA 603) per USAAF Spec.24114, dated September, 1940. Meduim Green (ANA 612) was used to soften the lines lines of the wings, main tail planes and fuselage which was part of the above Spec 24114. It's most likely that both aircraft wore OD/NG with MG on wings etc. The only thing that may be different (apart from All white tail planes) is that the Olive Drab paint may have changed (as in Hue etc), but the older Olive Drab was found on US aircraft up till 1944 (even after the order to not paint camouflage on aircraft). At one point in the above US Spec, Medium Green ANA 612 could actually replace Olive Drab ANA 613, as it was found the OD would fade to the almost match the Medium Green (not so commonly used apparently) (And we think RNZAF paint schemes can be a headache ;D) When you take Daves comments into account, you can have a hodge podge of schemes. Given also repairs and availablity of paint, from the US Quarter Masters and cannibalizing of wrecked aircraft on the airfields dumps (namely jungle), you could have various coloured panels on one aircraft in one Squadron (as we know). Though I'm sure the SU's Senior NCO's made sure their aircraft were kept in "Pristine" condition ;D ;D Hope that helps? Regards Alan
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Post by dewobz on Feb 22, 2013 15:58:53 GMT 12
Thanks Alan. When you say, "It's most likely that both aircraft wore OD/NG with MG on wings etc." do you mean a disrupted camouflage pattern? Or do you mean "blotching" as I understand (for instance) our C-47s had? Cheers Wally.
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Post by alanw on Feb 22, 2013 19:35:05 GMT 12
Thanks Alan. When you say, "It's most likely that both aircraft wore OD/NG with MG on wings etc." do you mean a disrupted camouflage pattern? Or do you mean "blotching" as I understand (for instance) our C-47s had? Cheers Wally. Hi Wally Blotching would be a good descriptive word for it. Our Dakota's would have worn it absolutely. , The B 17 in this link has a good representation of it www.yolo.net/~jeaton/mymodels/b17/1b17f/008b17revell48.htmlHope that helps you Regards Alan
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Post by steveh on Feb 22, 2013 22:59:57 GMT 12
I've got some decals for C-47s that include Popeyes RNZAF version which shows it as having what is to me quite unusal colour scheme not unlike the B-17. I'd always thought straight OD would have been the go, for later P-40s as well as the US sourced C-47, seems theres a lot more to glean on the subject. Steve.
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Post by davidd on Feb 23, 2013 14:07:09 GMT 12
Dewobz, Interesting picture of some NZ aircraft at what looks to be Green Island, but I don't think it shows disruptive camouflage at all; this would appear (to my jaundiced eye at least) to be normal USAAF dark olive drab/neutral gray scheme, and exhibiting the usual rough appearance of combat aircraft which see out their entire service lives outside and at the mercy of the elements, both tropical and temperate, with a few touch ups around the cowlings. Immaculate colour schemes in the forward area did not last long, and were certainly well down the list of priorities for the engineer officer, zealous NCOs notwithstanding. Remember that painting aircraft was not even a trade in those days; the usual painters were ACH/GDs who volunteered for or were ordered to get to grips with a brush or a spray gun. Painting aircraft was not a highly sought after job, but would at least get you out in the fresh air (until you opened the paint pots anyway). I have not seen much about the new blue grey paint used to replace the "dark earth" colour in the disruptive scheme factory applied to our P-40Es, from about March 1943 onwards, and is almost certainly the same paint applied to our P-40Ks (possibly in combination with their original OD upper surface finish) to give them their unique appearance, that is the ones with the wavey demarcation line between upper and lower surfaces. It is presumed that all this repainting took place in New Zealand as photos exist of the P-40Ks in this scheme passing through Norfolk Island in March/April 1943 (See Charles Darby's "RNZAF - The First Decade", page 68 (lower) and 76 (lower); however I am pretty certain these are not in RAF desert colours! These photos were definitely taken at Norfolk Island in service with 14 Squadron, and not at the Gunnery Training School at Ohakea as intimated in one caption; this school in fact did use P-40Es (and Harvards) with HQ code letters, but not P-40Ks. Many if not most of the surviving P-40Es in New Zealand also wore this blue grey paint as did many (but not all) of our Hudsons, and most of the GR School Ansons at New Plymouth, in association with dark green (latter possibly also "updated" to the Australian dark green colour called foliage green.) David D
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Post by dewobz on Feb 25, 2013 14:38:31 GMT 12
Most interesting. Thanks to everyone. There are certainly P-40N kitsets which indicate OD with US Med Green 'blotches' - Academy 1/72nd comes to mind - so perhaps it is possible some of ours had this? I may be confused about that and now I am certainly confused about our P-40Ks. David D, are you saying an aircraft - for arguments sake lets say NZ3060(9), Fisken, 3 kills - was in fact painted OD + NZ Blue Sea Grey (or a Blue Grey?) uppers over US Sky lowers? Is that the colour scheme we see her in at Guadalcanal earlier in this thread with wavey demarcation line ...? Sorry, but I can't get my head around so much (sometimes contradictory, other times radically new) information. David D and Alan W, how about you two pool your obviously considerable knowledge and resources and write the definitive book on RNZAF camo schemes ... PLEASE ...? Cheers, Wally.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 25, 2013 14:53:43 GMT 12
You're not the only one Wally, I am as confused as you are.
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Post by alanw on Feb 25, 2013 18:05:02 GMT 12
Most interesting. Thanks to everyone. There are certainly P-40N kitsets which indicate OD with US Med Green 'blotches' - Academy 1/72nd comes to mind - so perhaps it is possible some of ours had this? I may be confused about that and now I am certainly confused about our P-40Ks. David D, are you saying an aircraft - for arguments sake lets say NZ3060(9), Fisken, 3 kills - was in fact painted OD + NZ Blue Sea Grey (or a Blue Grey?) uppers over US Sky lowers? Is that the colour scheme we see her in at Guadalcanal earlier in this thread with wavey demarcation line ...? Sorry, but I can't get my head around so much (sometimes contradictory, other times radically new) information. David D and Alan W, how about you two pool your obviously considerable knowledge and resources and write the definitive book on RNZAF camo schemes ... PLEASE ...? Cheers, Wally. Hi Wally/Dave If you look at Pete Mossong's site he has Fiskens P 40K (NZ3060) as arriving in RAF style paint scheme Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky (US DUPont paints: Dark Earth 71-009 or 71-035/Dark Green 71-013 /Sky Type S -Grey 71-021 ). NZ3060 arrived in Jan 1943, so going by DavidD's comments of all the E models receiving NZ Sea Blue Grey over paint of the Dark Earth circa March 1943, then it's probable that the "Camouflaged" K's received it too. It would be interesting to read any orders for that period, the E Models I can see a reason to dress up, but brand new K models? It would involve painting over the Dark Earth, I 'm quite certain that the Sky Grey was really a NZ copy of the earlier DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S-Grey, so really that could be left, and just apply the NZ Sea Blue Grey - can image a few NCO's and maintenance Officers using some choice languge. I'm picking that the use of NZ Sea Blue Grey, may have had it's origins back when the RAF switched to Ocean Grey/Dark Green/ Medium Sea Grey mid to late 1941 (this is for another time). Personally, I doubt that any K/M Model P 40's arriving in the USAAF Colours of Olive Drab/Neuatral Grey with Medium Green "Splodges", would have had NZ Blue Sea Grey applied in camouflage. Looking at Fiskens later mount NZ3072 (M Model) it bears all the hall marks of the USAAF OD/NG with Medium Green. Operationally, I think this would have stayed in line with any US aircraft the RNZAF were operating alongside in the Operational areas. This also fits in with other aircraft received, serving in colours they arrived in (TBF-1c Avenger/F4U Corsairs etc) My line of thinking would be, that by 1943, the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN)or Japanese Army aircraft were being worn down in attrition. As the Allies gained Air Supremacy in the Pacific, aircraft colour really was a non issue. As in Europe, Pacific USAAF aircraft began to shed their camouflage and fly Natural Metal finish by 1944. An interesting note is, if the Pacific war had continued for another 6-12 months, the RNZAF would have received the P 51D's in natural metal. Imagine our pilots flying those ;D Wally I go back to my original comment certainly for M/N model P40's go for OD/NG with Med Green you can't lose. Unless some obscure order were to surface, giving orders to paint OD/NG aircraft with NZ sea Blue Grey, then we may need to worry then ;D Hope that helps? DavidD your comment re the P40K's in Dark Green/NZ Sea Blue Grey certainly opens up to a really cool looking P 40, was planning to do an E model in that, but now a K models certainly- many thanks ;D Regards Alan
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 25, 2013 18:16:30 GMT 12
Having said all that, how do you account for the photographic evidence that Kerry and Pete presented that allegedly shows camouflage line demarkation on NZ3072?
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