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Post by expatkiwi on Jan 1, 2013 9:14:49 GMT 12
I read an item in Wikipedia that stated Air New Zealand has a set policy of telling Male passengers to move to other seats if they are initially seated by minors who are not family members. If this is so, then Air New Zealand has been profiling all adult males as pedophiles. That makes me angry; not just as a male, but also as a born-and-bred New Zealander. I feel sick that a country that prides itself on equal treatment and courtesy has a flag carrier that is pursuing a discriminatory practice.
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Post by ErrolC on Jan 1, 2013 10:47:25 GMT 12
I'm fairly sure that this is common for Western carriers, there is nothing special about Air NZ in this regard.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jan 1, 2013 11:27:59 GMT 12
I'd sit tight and demand that they move the kids if they feel that strongly about it.
I'd make a huge scene just for the hell of it.
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2013 11:52:20 GMT 12
I'd sit tight and demand that they move the kids if they feel that strongly about it.
I'd make a huge scene just for the hell of it. I think I'd be raising some streuous opposition to such a move! It's bound to be breaking a number of discimination laws.
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Post by expatkiwi on Jan 1, 2013 13:11:17 GMT 12
I'd sit tight and demand that they move the kids if they feel that strongly about it.
I'd make a huge scene just for the hell of it. I think I'd be raising some streuous opposition to such a move! It's bound to be breaking a number of discimination laws. It is. Profiling is illegal.
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Post by keroburner on Jan 1, 2013 17:24:12 GMT 12
Hi, this IS the case, and for a few years now too. You can see why it isn't highly advertised, just going by the concern raised right here. Unacompanied minors are usually seated adjacent/next to Flight attendant stations ie gallies or crew exit seats. Primarily so crew can keep an eye on them for takeoffs/landings/turbulence etc. During the rest of the flight duration(~95%??), crew are too busy doing their job to keep constant watch on the minors, and I guess as they are the legal gaurdians of these kids for the flight they have to cover their tail ends from legal issues if a kid was 'fiddled with' onboard. The minors are also escorted to the gate for departure, and met at the gate on arrival to be handed over to awaiting parent/caregiver. While I hate to be treated as a kiddy fiddler, I think if we all looked at the statisitics, and did some 'profiling' of our own, we'd see most people who could harm these kids are middle class professional looking people, who sit behind computers too. Maybe they don't all fly on planes looking for lone kids, but its a lot easier to blanket ban/exclude a large group and take a bit of flack, than have something happen or allegedly happen inflight, then have a bigger group slaughter us in the press. On the other end of the scale, some kids need to be protected from their own parents/step parents!! But yes, usual story, the innocent get made to feel like crims thanks to a minority. If you know any kiddy fiddlers maybe thank them for being re seated onboard, rather than have a rant to crew who are just doing their jobs, They don't make the rules. Cheers. My 10 cents worth.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jan 1, 2013 17:52:36 GMT 12
Well....like I said, I'd kick up a HUGE, LOUD STINK and create a big scene.
If I had been allocated a seat and was actually seated in that seat, then they wanted me to move because of an unaccompanied minor, I would take the attitude that they could move the minor, because I wouldn't shift without creating a scene.
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Post by slackie on Jan 1, 2013 19:16:06 GMT 12
You'll probably find that the "shifting" is done at the seat allocation stage rather than once seated. Interestingly I have had an UM seated by me on one flight AA-CH... flight wasn't full either... the kid was nice enough and pretty interested in what was going on and I felt quite safe that she wasn't going to fiddle with me...mind you that was when we had business class up front of the B733 and the seats were quite large and with a trolley dolly assigned to the 6 seats, so they were probably fairly confident that I wouldn't fiddle with her either!?
To be honest I don't believe it's a big issue with domestic travel...aircraft are pretty public these day when packed in like cattle... might be more of an issue with long haul when the lights are turned down??
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Post by waterwingsnz on Jan 1, 2013 20:23:11 GMT 12
This thread prompted me to register in order to correct blatantly incorrect information. The policy several years ago was no male passengers next to Um's. The issued raised it's head (probably 5+ year ago) and the policy was ammended. Things happen in the following order. Um's (unaccompanied minors) are seated with a free seat beside them or with other Um's. If that does not happen, next attempt is to seat them next to a female passenger or staff member travelling onboard BUT if this is not possible/does not happen, once onboard the aircraft, an unaccompanied minor siting next to a male passenger DOES NOT warrant re-seating of passengers and moving the cabin all around.
Some may ask why female passengers are more deisreable in the first instance? Let's face it, women tend to be more nurturing and caring and as a Kiwi bloke, quite frankly the last thing I want to deal with is some strangers kids! (one's I might know personally are a different story).
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Post by sqwark2k on Jan 1, 2013 22:41:52 GMT 12
NZ civil aviation law requires all passengers to comply with all signs & crew instructions.
Sitting fast and creating a scene can bring an escort off the plane in the form of AvSec & NZ Police.....
S2k
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Post by phil82 on Jan 1, 2013 22:44:38 GMT 12
On reflection,I was about to post on similar lines. I noted that the first post referred to Wikipedia,[sic!] then my remaining brain cells kicked in and I realised this is actually very old news! It happened, but then there was the predictable protest and Air New Zealand did indeed amend its policy.
I have three granddaughters, eldest aged 16, who regularly fly Wn-Auck-Wn who have never experienced such policy, although being three together they usually occupy consecutive seats.
I haven't voted on the Poll because the question is wrong! It hasn't been established that ANZ has such a policy!
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Post by expatkiwi on Jan 2, 2013 1:50:51 GMT 12
This thread prompted me to register in order to correct blatantly incorrect information. The policy several years ago was no male passengers next to Um's. The issued raised it's head (probably 5+ year ago) and the policy was ammended. Things happen in the following order. Um's (unaccompanied minors) are seated with a free seat beside them or with other Um's. If that does not happen, next attempt is to seat them next to a female passenger or staff member travelling onboard BUT if this is not possible/does not happen, once onboard the aircraft, an unaccompanied minor siting next to a male passenger DOES NOT warrant re-seating of passengers and moving the cabin all around. Some may ask why female passengers are more deisreable in the first instance? Let's face it, women tend to be more nurturing and caring and as a Kiwi bloke, quite frankly the last thing I want to deal with is some strangers kids! (one's I might know personally are a different story). That policy is an insult to decent people. If the Airlines want to protect unaccompanied minors, then the minors need to placed in one section together. And BTW, I've been trying to find information regarding any ammendments to this policy by ANZ. I didn't find any, so please enlighten me as to your source of information.
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Post by haughtney1 on Jan 2, 2013 8:01:08 GMT 12
Squark NZ civil aviation law requires all passengers to comply with all signs & crew instructions.
Sitting fast and creating a scene can bring an escort off the plane in the form of AvSec & NZ Police.....
S2k NZ law is based on Westminster law, the aviation content of which is also covered under the various ICAO conventions....however, if the aircraft doors are not shut and is not moving under its own power, the laws are applied in a very different fashion. Put simply, as long as you don't endanger the safety of passengers or the flight, you ARE perfectly entitled to question a policy that is neither law or common practice. Kick up a stink in a euphemistic sense can infact highlight the outstanding stupidity of some of the rules airlines apply...to suit their own needs. I have had this actually happen to me whilst positioning in uniform, (but I will not identify the carrier) suffice to say, I informed the purser that as the airline had allocated me this specific seat, I was perfectly entitled to remain there until such time as safety dictated I needed to move, I cited numerous occasions where aircraft have slipped clocks and of course where tow bars have snapped...I then secured my seatbelt. I added that if the airline wished me to move seats, I required a new boarding pass for this flight or rebooking on a later flight, as was set out in the conditions of carriage..........the kiddie got moved.
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Post by eieio on Jan 2, 2013 8:11:00 GMT 12
Come on, kids have to be protected , the airline has taken on some of that responsibility ,there are wierdos everywhere ,it aint personal....get over it!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by waterwingsnz on Jan 2, 2013 8:34:12 GMT 12
This thread prompted me to register in order to correct blatantly incorrect information. The policy several years ago was no male passengers next to Um's. The issued raised it's head (probably 5+ year ago) and the policy was ammended. Things happen in the following order. Um's (unaccompanied minors) are seated with a free seat beside them or with other Um's. If that does not happen, next attempt is to seat them next to a female passenger or staff member travelling onboard BUT if this is not possible/does not happen, once onboard the aircraft, an unaccompanied minor siting next to a male passenger DOES NOT warrant re-seating of passengers and moving the cabin all around. Some may ask why female passengers are more deisreable in the first instance? Let's face it, women tend to be more nurturing and caring and as a Kiwi bloke, quite frankly the last thing I want to deal with is some strangers kids! (one's I might know personally are a different story). That policy is an insult to decent people. If the Airlines want to protect unaccompanied minors, then the minors need to placed in one section together. And BTW, I've been trying to find information regarding any ammendments to this policy by ANZ. I didn't find any, so please enlighten me as to your source of information. I do not wish to come across as rude but do you think everytime there is a policy amendment, these details are released on the internet and Wikipedia amended? My source is section 8.2.5 of the Airport Passenger Handling Manual and I can assure is much more up to date than Wikipedia. I still do not understand what you find so offensive about the policy. As I explained earlier, a female passenger may be the first preference but should a male be seated next to an Um then following Air NZ group policy, this is a totally acceptable outcome.
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Post by haughtney1 on Jan 2, 2013 9:42:41 GMT 12
Come on, kids have to be protected , the airline has taken on some of that responsibility ,there are wierdos everywhere ,it aint personal....get over it!!!!!!!!!! As a father of two under 5's I couldn't agree more eieio, our kids do need protecting, they need nurturing and encouragement. Contrary to you though, I'm certain that there aren't wierdos everywhere....behind every bush, outside the school gates...or indeed in the seat next to UM's on flights. The trouble is, people believe the BS, they buy into the media's scare tactics..and next thing you know..old Mr Jones at number 42 is a paedo because he talks to the young kids as they pass his gate on the way to school. Its apart of a wider problem in society where men have become vilified in the eyes of those who seek to immasculate us, those individuals (mostly now in policy planning or social engineering govt quango's) who believe their views represent the majority of fair minded and like thinking persons..without ever pausing to consider that their view is anything other than the right one. If you don't believe me, go and look at the number of male primary and secondary school teachers, go and have a look at the battles single fathers have in comparison to single mums. Men essentially are victims of the well educated and now overly represented bra burning screaming sisters of the 60's and 70's, we are all considered predators..or at the very least viewed as predatory. Kids need protecting from the poison of over-empowered feminist every bit as much as they do from bullying at school, racism, and all those other nice things..paedo's are a looong way down the list for me.
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Post by Ykato on Jan 2, 2013 10:35:00 GMT 12
That policy is an insult to decent people. If the Airlines want to protect unaccompanied minors, then the minors need to placed in one section together. And BTW, I've been trying to find information regarding any ammendments to this policy by ANZ. I didn't find any, so please enlighten me as to your source of information. I do not wish to come across as rude but do you think everytime there is a policy amendment, these details are released on the internet and Wikipedia amended? My source is section 8.2.5 of the Airport Passenger Handling Manual and I can assure is much more up to date than Wikipedia. I still do not understand what you find so offensive about the policy. As I explained earlier, a female passenger may be the first preference but should a male be seated next to an Um then following Air NZ group policy, this is a totally acceptable outcome. Q: What's Air NZ policy on Male Passengers travelling by themselves?. I've Experienced on the last 3 Trans Tasman Flt's I've undertaken solo - albeit a few yrs ago being seated on the aircraft centre aisle next to Elderly Male Passenger's after specifically requesting window seating etc, wouldn't of minded so much except for the Fact that their were more than a few seating rows on each flt with single female passengers taking up 1 seat in each with 2 empty seat's next to them on all three flts.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 2, 2013 10:57:22 GMT 12
I think it's a very good and considerate policy. I don't want someone's unsupervised little snot sitting next to me on a flight. Now can they amend it to ensure there's also not one sitting behind me, kicking the seat?
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Post by phil82 on Jan 2, 2013 12:17:45 GMT 12
]
As a father of two under 5's I couldn't agree more eieio, our kids do need protecting, they need nurturing and encouragement. Contrary to you though, I'm certain that there aren't wierdos everywhere....behind every bush, outside the school gates...or indeed in the seat next to UM's on flights. The trouble is, people believe the BS, they buy into the media's scare tactics..and next thing you know..old Mr Jones at number 42 is a paedo because he talks to the young kids as they pass his gate on the way to school. Its apart of a wider problem in society where men have become vilified in the eyes of those who seek to immasculate us, those individuals (mostly now in policy planning or social engineering govt quango's) who believe their views represent the majority of fair minded and like thinking persons..without ever pausing to consider that their view is anything other than the right one. If you don't believe me, go and look at the number of male primary and secondary school teachers, go and have a look at the battles single fathers have in comparison to single mums. Men essentially are victims of the well educated and now overly represented bra burning screaming sisters of the 60's and 70's, we are all considered predators..or at the very least viewed as predatory. Kids need protecting from the poison of over-empowered feminist every bit as much as they do from bullying at school, racism, and all those other nice things..paedo's are a looong way down the list for me. As a father of three, and grandfather of six, Phil 82 rises to his feet and applauds because he is in total agreement!!!!
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Post by steveh on Jan 2, 2013 12:25:28 GMT 12
Also as a Dad of three, wot he said. Having three boys, I know I'm up against it when it comes to introducing balance on this sort of thing. Steve
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