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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 14, 2013 23:07:00 GMT 12
Don't get me wrong, these roundel decal colours are better than some that other manufacturers have made, but as you agree the darker colour of the new PV-1 roundels is much more accurate to the shade that the roundels were (in fact I think the new decals have it pretty spot on). The colour details of roundels is a known quantity and have been colour matched in modern times so there's plenty of reference material around, look at photos of the Alpine Fighter Collection's Corsair and Avenger for accurate colour matched and specially mixed roundel colours.
As for the duck, I base it on the fact that I have never yet seen a single Servicing Unit marking of any SU on the starboard side. They always seemed to be placed on the port side. Have you ever seen a photo of one with it on the starboard side? There are hundreds of photos around of Corsairs - I have studied hundreds in detail - you'd think if an entire SU's worth of aircraft carried the logo on both sides at least a few photos would show this. So far to my knowledge I have never seen any evidence of the duck, or No. 23 Squadron's Ghost, or No. 19 Squadron's Katipo spider, or the other various SU or Sqn markings on the starboard side.
I think to make such an assumption based on the evidence is pretty sound. I would also assume that IF - a big if - it was on the starboard side it would not face backwards. I don't mind if someone produces any evidence to prove me wrong.
Getting back to the oundel colours, I mentioned that I have only seen one case where a roundel was painted in a much brighter, lighter blue than the norm. This case I was thinking about was a Corsair very late in the war and I suspect it may have been a victim of the paint pigment shortages they had. I believe the Corsair in question was in NZ, so that makes some sense.
However I have remembered there is another photo which shows a very odd light coloured roundel too. The photo is of No. 10 SU's maintenance area and there are several (at least 4) Venturas in the shot as well as some vehicles in the foreground and tents in the background. You probably know the shot I mean, it's in lots of books. I think from memory the place is Bougainville. The closest aircraft is NZ4518 in the original colour scheme which is fairly worn and it has a proper dark blue roundel under the wing. To the left in the background is a newly repainted PV-1 in a very dark repaint scheme with proper dark blue roundels. To the right there's another faded worn original 4-tone scheme Ventura well over the back with a slightly faded top wing roundel which is still pretty dark. But between the two faded PV-1s is NZ4503 newly repainted in the dark scheme too. Both the dark schemed aircraft look like they have just been sprayed, the paint is pretty pristine and this may well be why they are in the maintenance area. But NZ4503 has a light coloured roundel on the fuselage but fresh looking dark roundel under the wing.
I can only assume this light roundel is the original colours and it's about ti be retuched up. they probably masked around it and sprayed the fusealge main colour so when it came to repainting the roundel they had the masking guide of the old roundel. but it does stand out as odd. I think some people may see such a photo and assume it was an officially sanctioned light colour. I don't think it was.
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 15, 2013 0:19:14 GMT 12
In case anyone is interested in the photo I was referring to above........... Unfortunately, I cannot recall who posted this photo on the forum originally - so apologies to whomever I have forgotten to credit for this.
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Post by dewobz on Mar 15, 2013 13:12:34 GMT 12
That's a great photo Corsair67. To me it says, "Even a near new Corsair has some scruffy patches on it" (like around the wing roots). My computer is updating and will shut down in 13 mins so I'll use this post as a comparison. I know this subject has been done to death but when Dave says, "the blue has not gone bright blue like some manufactures try to depict, it stays dark blue, and of course has another coat of dark blue beneath than from the US roundel too" I find myself being asked to deny what my eyes can plainly see, though I admit in B&W and by no means all cases, which is lighter 'hued' or coloured or faded roundels - here's a couple (out of 5 or 6) taken in just moments from Classic Warbirds No 6 - NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 008 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 001 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr So I edited a couple of shots of NZ5262 finished from colour to B&W for comparison. It's just an experiment but I find it interesting - NZ5262 Finished Corsairs KM NA GB 011 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished Corsairs KM NA GB 032 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr Food for thought maybe? I tend to agree about the 'brightness' but not necessarily about the 'lightness'. A bunch of other finished pics will follow when the puta has restarted itself. Cheers Wally.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 15, 2013 13:26:41 GMT 12
The colour in my view of a faded, word RNZAF blue roundel should be more a dull blue-grey. It is after all sanded (by coral dust) and oxidised.
The Hasegawa style bright Cambridge blue is bullshit in my view. And these decals seem too bright to be worn, oxidised paint. I'm sorry but that's my view. Black and white photos are more the problem than the solution. Sure the NZ paint faded faster than the factory applied paint as it was not as good a quality but also it as applied in the field over topcoat paint. So it wore down. But it didn't go bright blue or bright white blue from all the people I have talked to who were actually there working on the aircraft.
All I think need to be done with your roundels is some dulling down as they are too vibrant.
Craig I believe it was Peter Wheeler who posted that shot first and he got it from Goodyear, but it's an often seen Air Force Museum of New Zealand Official shot.
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Post by dewobz on Mar 15, 2013 13:36:44 GMT 12
Dave, Yes, we're actually on (pretty much) the same page about this because that 'brightness' you refer to in my pictures is actually my camera's representation of the existing Ventura roundel blue colour which is somewhat 'duller' and darker to the naked eye. I'm interested in your comment about Hasegawa's Cambridge Blue though. Do you refer to the blue on Hasegawa's 1/48 & 1/32 Wairarapa Wildcat? Its just that this has been being praised on here for being the darker & more realistic RNZAF Blue. I guess maybe you're refering to the blue Hasegawa used on the likes of SBD-4 Dauntless NZ5034 which was a ridiculously light & bright colour, as is Italeri's NZ3072, Avenger & Dauntless roundels? Cheers Wally.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 15, 2013 14:12:51 GMT 12
Yes, I was referring to the Dauntless roundel colour. I just tried to find a chart to show but this chart has a different look for Cambrdieg Blue than what I am used to calling that colour. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Blue_(colour)But on this chart some manufacturers of decals have made RNZAF roundels look like the "Baby Blue" or "Powder Blue" range of the spectrum. I think a heavily worn roundel would look far more like the "Glaucous" to "UCLA Blue" range. The roundels on your model in these photos and lighting look more like the Azure.
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Post by dewobz on Mar 15, 2013 14:27:29 GMT 12
Having checked at home to find SkyModels decals NZ5277 only has Donald Duck on the port side I figured the odds were heavily stacked against a starboard cartoon so I removed him from the starboard side of NZ5262 and added all the finishing bits and pieces - NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 013 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 4977 F4U-1 Bu49714. Shipped from USA on 04 April 1944 aboard "USS Rudyard Bay". Assembled in Espiritu Santo and BOC Unit 60 on 01 May 1944. Issued to No.15 Fighter Squadron, Guadalcanal on 20 May 1944. Coded "62". To No.14 Squadron on 08 August 1944. To No.16 Squadron on 21 December 1944. To No.21 Squadron on 12 June 1945. To No.19 Squadron by July 1945. Crashed at Jacquinot Bay and burnt out on 23 July 1845. The aircraft suffered an engine failure on takeoff and crashed onto the runway. Flight Sergeant D. Howlett injured. Aircraft written off books at Jacquinot Bay. Depicted here in June 1945 with No 21 Squadron after (presumed) flak damage repairs. NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 025 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 024 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 034 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 040 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 050 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 052 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 033 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr NZ5262 Finished + Corsairs + KM NA GB 016 (Medium) by Wally Hicks, on Flickr The roundel blue is somewhat brighter than it appears on the model in 'real life' due to my camera. Trumpeter kitset with Quickboost resin seat, Mastercasters resin cowl flaps and scratch built detail. Color of Eagles & Tamiya acrylics & Humbrol enamels. Ventura decals with Colorado Decals yellow codes and stash extras. Thanks for watching. Wally. PS - as always, even more pictures are on www.kiwimodeller.com RNZAF 75th Anniversary GB & the Build Gallery of that forum.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 15, 2013 17:32:57 GMT 12
Well done Wally.
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Mar 15, 2013 17:43:19 GMT 12
Well, for what its worth, I really like this! Good on ya mate! :-)
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Post by corsair5517 on Mar 15, 2013 20:04:49 GMT 12
Regardless of all the window licking being done, this is a beauty!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 15, 2013 20:24:05 GMT 12
What does window licking mean? I looked it up and found it was French for window shopping, and also found a window licker is a colloquial term for a mentally handicapped person. I'm confused.
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 16, 2013 11:48:59 GMT 12
What does window licking mean? I looked it up and found it was French for window shopping, and also found a window licker is a colloquial term for a mentally handicapped person. I'm confused. I take it to mean the later..........but I'm not sure why.
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Post by trx850 on Mar 16, 2013 19:30:57 GMT 12
That's a great photo Corsair67. To me it says, "Even a near new Corsair has some scruffy patches on it" (like around the wing roots). My computer is updating and will shut down in 13 mins so I'll use this post as a comparison. I know this subject has been done to death but when Dave says, "the blue has not gone bright blue like some manufactures try to depict, it stays dark blue, and of course has another coat of dark blue beneath than from the US roundel too" I find myself being asked to deny what my eyes can plainly see, though I admit in B&W and by no means all cases, which is lighter 'hued' or coloured or faded roundels - here's a couple (out of 5 or 6) taken in just moments from Classic Warbirds No 6 - Hi to all. Below are a couple of pics from my files (scanned from first generation prints) that have a better contrast than those 'washed-out' ones in Malcolm's book. And a fairly 'fresh' airframe. Note how dark the Insignia Blue borders to the white bars on the fuselage are. Insignia Blue appears as almost a black in the Fs. colour swatches. Note: The RNZAF added starboard upper and port underside roundels on most Corsairs usually had these borders painted in the RNZAF roundel Blue. Most roundel blues that I have seen (having been around to notice these things since the early '50's at firstly Woodbourne then Hobby and Whenuapai) and later as an active member of Warbirds, have faded to a bluish grey colour, not a pastel or 'Baby Blue'! Cheers, Pete M.
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Post by dewobz on Mar 17, 2013 9:08:04 GMT 12
Thanks Pete, Nice picture that second one. I always wondered what the actual procedure for the pilot getting into the aircraft was ...? Looks cumbersome. I'm always willing to speculate on here and realize I am often incorrect, but darned if just behind the pilot's right shoulder (or upper back) I don't detect the hint of some starboard side forward fuselage artwork ...? You don't happen to know which aircraft it is, do you? I guess it could be code numbers? I have seen a few with codes on the forward fuselage rather than the cowling. That roundel colour looks very fresh and almost as dark as the borders. Over the last year or so I have become convinced that the RNZAF roundel colour, although it may have varied, was most often closest to the colour of Aeromaster's old RNZAF in WW2 decal set - with which you are no doubt familiar - and also Ventura decals new PV-1 Venturas set. (I think the two are about the same FS colour). Perhaps it would be safer to say that my personal preference would be a return to approximately that colour. Short of becoming a decal manufacturer myself (which I'd rather like to do actually but don't feel capable of at present although I am vaguely investigating it) my hopes rest on Malcolm responding to all this feedback - and let's face it there is stacks of it on this site concerning RNZAF roundel colours - and darkening the colour as Ventura decal sheets come up for reprinting? He has very recently done this with PV-1 Venturas and everyone seems very pleased. I know I am. As someone else on here commented earlier, one can always fade them back as desired ... everyone except me that is ... so I am retaining some of Ventura's old PV-1 sets in the event of doing a significantly faded aircraft. (That's just my personal preference because my every attempt to fade decals in the past has been disasterous). I guess I just want to reiterate that in the meantime, while there is a lack of any real alternative to Ventura decals FOR ME, I myself (and so far 3 commission clients too) will continue to use them by clear personal preference because they are so accurate and of such high quality in every other way. When it comes to RNZAF decals I really only want to ever use Ventura Decals! Wally. PS - I'm posting this even though I know I have not expressed myself clearly (yet again) ...
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Post by corsair5517 on Mar 17, 2013 20:14:12 GMT 12
Sorry 'bout that... "window licking" is a term I picked up in Jersey, meaning worrying a trivial detail to death, and in this instance means the constant to-ing and fro-ing about the colour of the decals when the build itself is a beauty!
Gee... the aircraft were really scruffy, weren't they!?!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2013 11:27:55 GMT 12
OK. Well as a historian (not a modeller) I like to get the details right.
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Post by dewobz on Mar 18, 2013 17:43:29 GMT 12
Thanks for your comment about the build Corsair5517 Yep, details are good ... And I want to influence the decal manufacturer.
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Post by davidd on Mar 23, 2013 14:42:48 GMT 12
A small comment on the two photographs (both RNZAF official and fortunately dated in these cases) posted with Reply #32. The top photo was taken at Espiritu in about October 1944, and the lower one in about April/May 1944, at Guadalcanal on arrival from E/Santo (20 Squadron pilot). This is important as the degree of fading of roundels in these two views is striking, although both were originally painted at E/Santo, possibly by the same painter and almost certainly with near-identical paint. As these aircraft were always left outside all day (and night) through lack of such luxuries as hangars, the sun was able to do its worst. The RNZAF normally cheated in painting Corsair roundels at E/Santo by using similar sizes and locations as the original US insignia (which is only sensible!), and of course the side bars are in fact the original American painted ones in most cases. However the American insignias only appeared on top of one wing and the lower surface of the other, so these had to be laid out from scratch and fully painted on to conform to RNZAF practice. You will notice that the underwing roundel visible in the upper shot appears considerably darker than its opposite upperwing roundel; in fact the latter is as faded as the fuselage roundel. Nevertheless I feel that these are all "dark blue" roundels, although they are just of differing shades, and certainly none called be called by any stretch of the definition as "light" blue. However the longer they stayed in the tropics outside, the paler they would appear, and this is probably accentuated by these markings being in flat paint. My ten cents worth. David D
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