Reclining airliner seats

[kiwithrottlejockey]

from The New Zealand Herald....

Sit back. Relax. But don't lean on me!

By WINSTON ALDWORTH | 11:00AM - Tuesday, October 08, 2013



IT'S A pretty common scene in any airline's TV advertisement: A passenger leans back, reclining in their seat with a comfortable and relaxed grin that you just know is impossible to sustain when actually flying economy class.

Clearly airlines feel that the fact their seats recline is a selling point, otherwise the smug smiler wouldn't feature in the telly ads.

But the numbers from a survey by Skyscanner suggest the airlines might want to reconsider. The unscientific poll of 1000 fliers found that nine out of 10 respondents want reclining seats on planes banned.

The problem, of course, with reclining seats isn't that your seat reclines, it's that the seat of the ignorant b*****d in front of you reclines.

Although they're often good for a talking point (and I use them often in these pages), these self-selecting surveys from travel businesses are to be taken with a grain of salt - but the numbers on this are compelling. A quick scroll through social media seems to support the notion that many passengers don't want reclining seats.

For fans of distributive justice and economics, the reclining-seat issue is a modern version of the tragedy of the commons. Reclining my seat is not in the wider interest of everyone in the (inflight) community, but it's very much in my interest. Conversely, when everyone else reclines, that's not in my interest.

"It's partly because there are two general personality types while travelling," says Dr Becky Spelman, a psychologist from the Private Therapy Clinic in London, examining the psychology of so-called reclining seat rage. "There's the ‘altruistic soul’, who is considerate of others, and the ‘selfish ego’, who will look to increase their own comfort at the expense of others."

(Word to the wise: The survey found the most likely passengers to be "altruistic souls" were women aged between 18 and 24. Try to sit behind them. Men over the age of 35 were the most selfish. Er, that's me ...)

As with so much in life, common courtesy could hold the key. How about we try telling the person seated behind when we're going to recline? Trouble is, an aeroplane cabin is an odd mix of private and personal space in which we tend not to acknowledge, let alone talk to, the strangers around us.

www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11136190

[kiwithrottlejockey]

One of my pet hates is people who recline their seat right back on short-haul flights, such as Wellington to Auckland.

I jam my knees into their back as hard as I can.

I can keep it up for a long time in order to make it as uncomfortable as possible for them.

[machpants]

travelling to the UK without reclining seats would be hell, no thanks

[jonesy]

Up till last week I've been flying to work on 737-800, and always book in row 13, its the exit row seat and gives me that extra wee bit of legroom, so it doesnt matter if the guy in front reclines. Now I fly on a charter flight and its on a BAe146, and its definitely cramped in! Fortunately the guy in front didnt recline otherwise it wouldnt have been too comfortable....

[conman]

A pet hate of mine, trying watching your video screen when it is 5cm from your face, I find anything more than a slight recline doesn't improve my ability to snooze on a long flight anyway, perhaps the level of recline could say be halved, it's the full recliners who are the problem if they want that kind of space pay for Business Class. I invested in some ingenious little devices call Knee Defenders which you place on the arms of the tray table and limit the amount of recline of the seat in front, have deployed a couple of times to great effect, stopped some little brat teenager bustin my knees on a flight from Auckland to QT once , very amusing watching them try to figure out what was going on !

[Bruce]

Having recently travelled to the Uk and back via USA, I have to say that I positively hate Economy class seats on all airlines! One leg (Chicago to LA on Virgin America) I was stuck in the last row in the cabin, against the bulkhead so it couldnt recline. - the seat ahead could of course, so I was constantly having to change the position of the IFE screen. What little recline the seats do have is completely useless, and as sleep on my side and cant sleep sitting up, it was a long trip! what I want is something like this (for the same modern ticket price of course!)

[kiwithrottlejockey]

I can remember flying in QANTAS Boeing 707s and Air New Zealand DC8s back in the 1970s, before they turned things into "squeeze class", and where the rows of seats actually lined up with those big windows in the DC8s, resulting in heaps of legroom, even in economy class. And the meals were served up on crockery plates and the cutlery was silverware.

Mind you, the price of travel was considerably greater back then in real terms....which I guess proves that you cannot have your cake AND eat it too.

[conman]

Oct 9, 2013 14:31:35 GMT 12 Bruce said:

Having recently travelled to the Uk and back via USA, I have to say that I positively hate Economy class seats on all airlines! One leg (Chicago to LA on Virgin America) I was stuck in the last row in the cabin, against the bulkhead so it couldnt recline. - the seat ahead could of course, so I was constantly having to change the position of the IFE screen. What little recline the seats do have is completely useless, and as sleep on my side and cant sleep sitting up, it was a long trip! what I want is something like this (for the same modern ticket price of course!)

I bet that low level run down the Thames raised a few eyebrows

[kiwithrottlejockey]

from The New Zealand Herald....

Legroom wars: Another jet forced to divert after seat rage

AFP | 5:34PM - Wednesday, September 03, 2014



IT'S BEEN dubbed the legroom wars.

For the third time in nine days, a US commercial jet has been forced to divert by enraged passengers flying into a temper over a reclining seat in the cramped confines of economy class.

A 32-year-old woman trying to snooze on a tray table on a flight from New York to West Palm Beach, Florida became the latest offender on Monday when the woman in front slammed her seat back, bashing her alleged victim's head at the end of the US Labor Day holiday weekend.

The woman allegedly struck became loud and verbally abusive, and when cabin crew tried to calm her down she got worse, forcing the pilot to divert Delta Air Lines flight 2370 to Jacksonville, northern Florida.

Jacksonville Aviation Authority police identified the woman as unemployed Amy Fine of Boca Raton, Florida, saying she was escorted off the flight after it landed at 9:30pm (0130 GMT).

Fine became “very combative... to the point that they were concerned for the safety of themselves and the passengers. For that reason they diverted the plane,” said the police report.

Fine denied that she had been disruptive, and told officers that she had two dogs die and was “just very emotional”. She was then released without incident, police said.

Delta Airlines told AFP that flight 2370 was re-routed "out of an abundance of caution" due to a passenger disruption, and continued onto West Palm Beach after the passenger was ejected.

On Thursday, a Frenchman was arraigned in Boston after becoming disruptive when the passenger in front of him reclined their seat on American Airlines flight 62 from Miami to Paris.

Edmond Alexandre, 61, similarly flouted efforts from the cabin crew to appease him, chasing after a steward and grabbing his arm before being handcuffed by a security guard.

He was thrown off the flight in Boston and admitted to hospital at his own request, then charged with interfering with a crew member while he was at Massachusetts General Hospital.

Alexandre is due back in court on December 29th, a spokesman for the local prosecutor said, and faces up a maximum penalty of six months in a house of correction and a $500 fine.

On August 24th, United Airlines said flight 1462 from Newark to Denver diverted to Chicago and two passengers ejected owing to a disturbance.

One of the passengers used a $22 gadget dubbed the “Knee Defender” which blocks the seat in front from reclining.

He refused to remove the device when asked by a stewardess and his neighbour threw a glass of water in his face.

Airline industry analyst Robert Mann said that diversions over a reclining seat were an “overreaction” and called for a better standard operating procedure in such circumstances.

“This is a case of passengers overreacting and behaving badly. It's just hideously expensive in terms of cost to the airline, and very inconvenient for everyone on board,” he said.

Average legroom in economy on US network carriers is 76 to 81 centimetres and with August the peak travel period, the timing was “not surprising,” he said.

Related news stories:

• UK airline scraps reclining seats to stop air rage

• Top inflight annoyances

www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11318537

---

from The New Zealand Herald....

Knee Defender or knee jerks? The gadget that has sparked mid-flight fury

By WINSTON ALDWORTH | 3:02PM - Wednesday, August 27, 2014


Reclining seats on planes have long been a contentious issue — but now a gadget designed
to protect passengers' knees has also caused controversy.

THE inflight battle for legroom went up a notch or two on Monday when a plane was diverted after a row broke out between two passengers aboard a United Airlines flight from Newark to Denver.

The source of the problem: a Knee Defender, the $26.30 device that clamps onto an airline tray table, preventing the passenger in front of you from reclining their seat.

These things should be banned from all passenger aircraft.

The worst-case scenario is that you have someone in front of you recline their seat and refuse to put it forward (which they're entitled to do) and some bastard behind you putting the Knee Defender into action.

On Monday's Flight 1462, the woman seated in front took offence and the man behind refused to remove the device, even when asked to do so by cabin crew. That's when she threw a cup of water in his face and the plane got diverted.


KNEE DEFENDER. — Click on the image to learn more.

So, who's right and who's wrong?

Well, obviously he's in the wrong.

When you pay to ride in a plane, you're paying to use the seat — and if that means the seat reclines, well bad luck for the person behind. Of course, we should all be reasonable and, if the passenger behind asks nicely, most folk will put their seats forward. Nobody hops on to a plane planning to be an a**hole. Except maybe him.

She's also in the wrong.

Throwing water? C'mon we're grown ups here. And as much as he sounds unpleasant, it's worth bearing in mind that it was her actions that led to the plane being diverted for an unscheduled stop in Chicago.

The Knee Defender's inventor, Ira Goldman, has said people should tell the passenger in front of them when they are using a Knee Defender.

“The Knee Defender says right on it: ‘Be courteous. Do not hog space. Listen to the flight crew’. Apparently that is not what happened here,” he told USA Today.

United Airlines, like many major US carriers has, banned the device.

• Winston Aldworth is The New Zealand Herald's Travel Editor.

www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=11315049

[kiwithrottlejockey]

from The New Zealand Herald....

If you are too laid-back I might fly into a rage

Passengers who recline without thinking are no friends of mine.

By MATT HEATH | 9:30AM - Monday, September 22, 2014



AIR TRAVEL reclining has to stop.

You may think you are just relaxing. You may think it's your right. But tilting your seat back on a domestic flight is an act of aggression. No different than poking someone's shoulder at a pub. Eventually you will push the good flyers of this country too far. Then there will be nothing relaxing about what will happen to you.

Like most New Zealanders I am a nice person. I help people when they break down, I stand up for the elderly on buses, I smile and say “good morning” to strangers on the street and I ask checkout people “how their day is going” even though I don't care.

But recline in front of me mid-air and I will explode.

I used to let reclining slide. I turned the other cheek. That was before I saw the damage it can do. Two years ago on a flight from Auckland to Dunedin I was catching up on some work. My laptop was out on the tray table, a coffee beside it. I was relaxed and happy. Then suddenly the person in front reclined right in my face, spilling the coffee on my laptop, burning my knees and staining my white shirt.

I undid my seat belt and jumped up expecting an apology or at least some sympathy. What happened next shocked me to my core. “I'm allowed to recline you know,” yelled the 50-something lady who had just scolded me with her aggressive relaxation.

That day I saw into the cold, selfish heart of the recliner. I was forced to spend the next 10 minutes kicking the back of her seat. Every time she complained, I yelled “I'm allowed to.” Luckily she backed down and tilted forward before the hostess became involved. Heated in-air arguments rarely end well.

In recent weeks three US flights have been returned to destination on the back of a reclining fracas.

It's only a matter of time before it happens here.

It's important to note that many recliners have no idea what they are doing to the passenger behind them. There is a recline function so they use it. These people need to be told. With all the pointless safety nonsense we have to listen to pre-flight. Surely they could add a “recline responsibly” line.

Hassling people to turn off their laptops 30 minutes before landing is a waste of time. They know it and you know it. Passengers reclining in other passengers' faces is a ticking time bomb.

In the perfect world there would be enough space between seats to recline without causing a brouhaha. If the airlines are going to have a recline function they should allow for the space. If they insist on ramming more and more rows of seats on to planes they should remove the function. Simple.

However, just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean you should. There is no law against stinking. We could all just stop showering and torture people with our odour. Considerate humans don't stink, or recline.

Unfortunately, there are bad eggs out there who don't care. As a result some American passengers are fighting back with anti-recline clips. The Knee Defender™ is a device you can order online. You simply attach the two plastic clips to the arms of your tray table. Stopping the creeping evil in its tracks.

There are a couple of problems with the Knee Defender. Firstly, they may land you in custody for modifying an aircraft in flight. Secondly they can cause an equal and opposite reaction.

On a recent flight between Newark and Denver a passenger fastened a Knee Defender to his tray table. When the passenger in front couldn't recline she retaliated by throwing water in the fastener's face. A fight broke out and the plane made an emergency landing in Chicago where both passengers were arrested.

Clipping is an extreme measure. But so is reclining. If for some medical reason you must recline on a domestic flight, try asking the person behind you if it's okay. Be nice.

Recliners aren't breaking any rules. But know this. You are making an enemy of the person behind you. Nice people like me who help old ladies across the street.

In life you can choose to be selfish or considerate. It's up to you. But recline in my face and prepare to be poked in the back of the seat.

• Matt Heath is a radio host on Radio Hauraki and New Zealand Herald columnist.

www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=11328910

[11SQNLDR]

The guy needs anger management classes lol

[Dave Homewood]

Give them all troopseats, that will shut the whingers up.

[beagle]

take the train or do they have the same problem.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

The travelling public have actually brought all of this on themselves.

They continually demand cheaper fares, so the airlines give the travelling public what they want by cutting costs to enable them to offer those cheaper fares.

And one of the easiest ways for airlines to cut costs is to squeeze up the seat rows and fit heaps more paying customers in.

Then you run into the air-rage problems caused by reclining seats when the seat-pitch is too narrow to enable reclining seats without having people intrude into other people's space.

I'll admit, I purchased a pair of those Knee Defenders about a year ago (they are really cheap) and keep them in my carry-on bag, although I haven't had to use them yet, but I would if somebody in the seat in front of me was being really ignorant about things.

[beagle]

so what sort of seats are on NZ passenger trains these days. Haven't been on a train since I travelled from Dunedin to Blenheim to join up

[Darren Masters]

We had a ccon issued at work saying that those knee-defender things are not to be used on our flights and are to be removed from the passenger that has them. Hey, if it was up to me recline would be banned from ALL flights. It is the most annoying thing about air travel and that twit that likes it way back from WLG-AKL, what the hell? Must say, NO airlines have leg room like they used to on Tasman/domestic services. Cram in as many as possible. I was very impressed when paxing on the Air NZ 777-200 from AKL-SYD last week though. Tons of room!

[kiwithrottlejockey]

If you click on the link to Mary Kirkby's blog in the LA Times article, you'll see that Air NZ gets a mention, although not in relation to “Economy Minus” seating.

---

from the Los Angeles Times....

Would you book a smaller, “Economy Minus” seat to save money?

By HUGO MARTIN | 10:00AM PST - Sunday, November 02, 2014


United Airlines launched “Economy Plus” seats 15 years ago. Now a major airline may be considering an “Economy Minus” seat
with less legroom. — Photo: United Airlines.

UNITED AIRLINES launched a new concept 15 years ago called “Economy Plus”, an airline seat that gives fliers a few more inches of legroom for a higher price.

It has been so popular that other airlines have copied the idea. America Airlines offers “Main Cabin Extra” and Delta Air Lines has “Economy Comfort”.

Now a major airline may be considering another breakthrough idea: “Economy Minus”, a seat that offers less legroom at a discount price.

Before you scoff, consider that a new survey found that 42% of airline travelers said they would be very likely or somewhat likely to book a seat with less legroom if it means getting a cheap fare.

The importance of price is highlighted by another finding from the survey: 97% of fliers say it is either very important or somewhat important when booking a flight, according to research company YouGov, which polled 1,145 adults.

The idea of a new “Economy Minus” seat surfaced last month when airline blogger Mary Kirby reported that a major carrier was considering adopting a seat with a pitch of 30 inches or less. Pitch is the distance between the back of your seat and the back of the seat in front of you. Kirby reported that the tip came from an airline representative who asked that the airline not to be named.


United Airlines' “Economy Plus” seating.
— Photo: United Airlines.

The U.S. Department of Transportation does not impose seat size standards. Instead, federal regulators require that airlines offer enough space so passengers can evacuate in 90 seconds or less with half of the exits blocked.

Passenger rights activists say the “Economy Minus” idea is part of an airline industry trend to squeeze passengers for more profits.

Paul Hudson, president of the 50,000-member FlyersRights.org, said his group is pushing federal regulators to adopt airline seat standards of at least 18 inches wide, with a pitch of at least 35 inches. The tightest economy seats now offered on Spirit Airlines are 17.75 inches wide with a pitch of 28 inches.

“It’s a real problem,” Hudson said of the airline seating trend. “It has gone beyond being a comfort issue to being a safety issue.”

United may have created “Economy Plus”, but a spokesman said it is not the airline that is thinking about launching “Economy Minus”.

www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-economy-minus-seat-20141031-story.html

[kiwithrottlejockey]

From the BBC....


• Cabin Fever

Finding your comfort zone can be difficult at 35,000 feet. As cash-strapped carriers try to put more passengers on each plane, flyers are feeling the squeeze. But there are innovations and advancements being made in aircraft design and London is leading the way with a cluster of firms in this specialist market. Peter Day asks about the width and breadth of these changes and when they will start to make some difference to air travellers everywhere.

[kiwithrottlejockey]

from The New Zealand Herald....

Kiwi man fined for abusive behaviour on a Wellington to Brisbane flight

5:15PM - Thursday, July 09, 2015


Kiwi Shane Mathew Diedrichs was fined in the Brisbane Magistrates Court on Thursday for
abusive behaviour towards another passenger.

AN episode of air rage sparked by a passenger's reclining seat has cost a New Zealand man $600.

Shane Mathew Diedrichs was fined in the Brisbane Magistrates Court on Thursday for abusive behaviour towards another passenger aboard a flight from Wellington to Brisbane last November.

The court heard the 38-year-old became aggressive when the man in front refused to move his reclined seat into the upright position, pushing and kicking the back of the chair and forcefully striking its headrest.

Commonwealth prosecutor Rebecca Blaszczyk said witnesses reported Diedrichs became agitated and began pushing, kicking and kneeing the man's seat, making “violent gestures”, and speaking in an aggression tone.

Diedrichs, a roofer, arranged to move seats but not before forcefully striking the reclining passenger's headrest and later returning to verbally abuse him.

Ms Blaszczyk said the male passenger reported suffering whiplash injuries from the blow to his headrest.

Diedrich was genuinely embarrassed, according to his lawyer, who said the outburst was caused by the stress of not receiving payment for some work he'd completed.

Nevertheless Magistrate Bronwyn Springer imposed a $600 fine and told Diedrich he was lucky he wasn't facing an assault charge.

“Being in an aircraft, it is a confined space, it can get out of control,” she warned.

“People's emotions have to be kept in check.”

Outside court, Diedrichs said he regretted the incident but only became angry when the other passenger responded rudely to him.

“It's a short flight, no one reclines their seat between here and New Zealand,” he said.

“I did ask nicely and it was the response I got, that's what fired me up.”

“I'm not a violent person, I'm not an angry person, it was just bad timing.”

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11478317

[isc]

My first passenger flight was from Dunedin Woodbourne back in 1963 in a Hastings, now there seating room, and they didn't recline. For those who don't know, the seats had high backs, and were solid compared to modern seats, and they faced the rear.
As for modern seating, think of the weight saving if the seats were fixed. Or as Dave said Troop seats, (+ bring your own cushion). isc