aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 21, 2014 20:07:27 GMT 12
Firstly -congratulations on such a powerful resource. I've been digging deeply into the web over the past little while trying to find as much information as I can about the Dauntless in RNZAF service. I only just stumbled upon your site today. It's brilliant!
I'm creating an accurate (down to the rivets accurate) skin for an existing 3D model of an SBD-3. The model is part of an online WWII air combat simulation called War Thunder, where they have an SBD-3 in American colours already. Unfortunately at this time they have no later variants, and I haven't heard of any plans to release them in the future. Although the game has more than 5 million players around the world (and a sizeable number from NZ) it is only in it's beta testing phase, so I hope that eventually they will release the Dauntless types that actually saw combat with the RNZAF.
I've created a fairly accurate basic skin using drawings from Peter Mossong's site.
But there are some things that I can't find, and I'm hoping someone here might know.
Did the two-tone SBD-3 livery (the one with the red spinner) have black props, or were they natural metal? Did they have yellow tips?
Does anyone have a close-up of the aircraft serial lettering and fin/cowl numbers. I'm trying to find a font that matches this closely, or I will create one from scratch.
I'd appreciate any advice.
Cheers
Greg
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 22, 2014 2:41:29 GMT 12
Here's a couple of samples of the skin -please excuse the fact that I haven't done any oil stains or proper weathering yet.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 22, 2014 9:34:27 GMT 12
Wow, Great work.
I'd suggest you contact Barf at the Air Force Museum of New Zealand. He may have documentation that will help.
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 22, 2014 14:03:56 GMT 12
Thanks Dave. I'll do that. Don't know if you've seen the game I'm creating skins for. It's free to play and made by a Russian company (with a Japanese name) -I've been so impressed by their attention to detail. I hadn't really played any flight simulation games for nearly a decade -and those ones really never captured to feel of flying. The look and feel of this one had my jaw dropping from the first flight. The environment and light is just stunning, and the fighters all have detailed 3D cockpits, and fully detailed and working controls (on the Dauntless including things like dive flaps, cowls flaps, trim tabs, etc) Here's a link to a promotional video that was made using actual clips from replays of missions. I've had to give up flying because of a heart condition, so this is the closest I get to real flying anymore. I find it quite immersive, and a lot of fun.
(War Thunder promotional clip) They already have skins for a couple of RNZAF Kittyhawks. Intend to create a full set of RNZAF skins for the SBD-3, Corsair, Avenger, Catalina, and P-40. That should keep me busy for a bit. And hopefully, they will release SBD-4 & 5 models and Ventura so I can put together a complete set. Again, congratulations on this site. Always great to see enthusiasts getting together and sharing their knowledge. Cheers Greg
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Post by davidd on May 22, 2014 14:48:56 GMT 12
Greg, Your work lookd very impressive, but what makes you believe the prop 'spinner' to be red? These aircraft had a Hamilton Standard counterweight-type prop, and the 'spinner' was actually made of black rubber, and was concerned with the anti-icing system so far as I know. The RNZAF Mk. V Hudsons had very similar props. Also the roundel centres should almost certainly be red, as this is why these roundels have got only small centres. When they eventually changed over to blue centres they were made larger again. The "shrinking" of the centre circle progressed through at least a couple of stages, following 'unfortunate occurrences' in the forward area involving our Kittyhawks and Venturas during 1943, and the complete abandonment of red in the insignia (apart from that included in the ultru-narrow fin flashes) was the final answer. Remember that the RNZAF's SBD-3s were never used in the forward area by us, although these aircraft were all combat veterans themselves and many were distingished by having patched bullet holes in various places, something for the new crews to ponder on. The later aircraft taken over at Espiritu Santo were also painted up with RNZAF roundels and serial numbers, and the remains of one of the SBD-4s (NZ5037) is in the RNZAF Museum's possession. This is a fascintating artifact, as all the New Zealand markings were applied by hand-painting (that is, not sprayed on, and definitiely no stencils - each insignia and serial was pencilled on first - the pencil marks are still in situ.) This even extended to the 'stencilled-on' serial numbers - most intriguing! Assuming that all aircraft were painted in this way, must have taken a good number of airmen ages to carry out this task. Some 40 aircraft had to be painted up, each with six roundels and two serial numbers, plus two fin flashes. David D
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Post by baz62 on May 22, 2014 16:07:44 GMT 12
Hi Greg, that is caertainly an impressive looking job you have done there. A few tweaks and she'll look perfect. I've had a play on War Thunder, usually get my arse shot out of the sky fairly quickly!
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 22, 2014 17:31:56 GMT 12
davidd. Hi David. I was working from the illustrations on Peter Mossongs site ( This one here). The second image down clearly shows a red spinner (he even describes it in the painting instructions) and he also details a Blue/White/Blue roundel in 6 places. But I am trying for accuracy here, so I'm happy to make changes if your information is more accurate than his. Yes, these are the Seagrove Dauntlesses that never saw combat with the RNZAF. I didn't know about the patched bullet holes; thanks for that. I'll try to incorporate them in my skin. Do you know if they just patched the holes with "Instant Airframe" or did they replace entire panels? Gaijin (the company that make the game) haven't released any SBD-4 or 5 variants yet, so I'll have to wait until they do before I can create any of our Pacific Theatre veterans. But they do have the Corsair model that we used, so once I've finished the Dauntless I'll probably start on those. baz62. Hi Baz. It took me quite some time before I wasn't getting a proper arse-kicking every time I played, but I'm getting quite proficient now. I play at the highest level the game offers (Simulator Battle) where you must fly from inside the cockpit, and there are no pilot aids (enemy markers, combat radar, etc). They've created fairly accurate flight and damage models for most of the aircraft, and I can't even comprehend the maths used to calculate the refraction and reflections in canopies and steel (not to mention the physics used to calculate shell trajectories). Besides all the flying, I've also really enjoyed learning about some aircraft that I'd never really even heard of before the game (He-112, La-7, Yer-2, Pe-2, B7A2, etc)
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 22, 2014 19:37:07 GMT 12
Greg, David is one of NZ's most impeccable sources for accurate detail when it comes to RNZAF history. I would trust his word implicitly on such matters.
I wonder what Pete might be able to add. I'll tap him on the shoulder.
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 22, 2014 22:40:54 GMT 12
Thanks Dave (and David) I really appreciate any assistance.
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 23, 2014 1:23:21 GMT 12
I created a quick re-colour to match David's description
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 23, 2014 21:41:14 GMT 12
Sorry -with all the other things going on in this thread I forgot about my original question.
DavidD, do you know if the prop on the Seagrove 2-tone SBD-3 was black or was it natural metal? And did they have yellow tips? I've left them natural for now, but as you can see from the above still, the game renders the prop dark with a yellow tip when spinning.
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Post by davidd on May 24, 2014 17:44:58 GMT 12
Greg, Would have got back to you earlier, but my original post "vanished" just before it was completed, so I had to start again!
Firstly, looking at the Peter Mossong pages, these seeme to be pretty good to me on the whole, and particularly the later drawings with the ANA numbers and suchlike. The only quibbles I have is the use (in the earlier drawings) of the now discredited use of the M-485A and M-495A designations for standard US Navy aircraft colours. Only M-485A is genuine, and this is a specification number for a range of aeronautical paints available in the standard Navy colours of the time, and do not in themselves carry any information about the colour as such - for that you had to order your paint using the colour, such as M-485A non-specular blue grey, etc, then use the catalogue to get the correct number for the size of the tin, or drum in popular sizes (from one quart to 5 gallons). M-495A has absolutley NOTHING to do with aeronatical paints, and would seem to tbe the result of misreading of a poorly printed catalogue. I helped discredit this notion about 15 years ago, but seemingly I did not do a good enough job! What you need is a copy of the US Navy aeronatical paints and dopes catalogue (catalog in American!), namely that put out by the Aviation Supply Office, and known as the Catalog of Aeronautical materials, spare parts and Equipment known as "Class 52" (Varnishes, dopes, glues, lacquers, thinners, compounds, enamels, solvents, cements, paints, primers and miscellaneous). My copy is titled as "First edition, December 1943", which replaced the "Preliminary Edition of October 1943". This "First Edition" includes both the older (obsolete) blue gray, plus a range of other paints specified for unit markings only, as well as the new Intermediate Blue, Light Gray, Black (for lettering and markings), Orange Yellow (for propller tips only), Sea Blue (last available in Non-specular and Semi-gloss) variants. Also incuded was the new range of insignia colours: Insignia Blue, Red, White, plus Cobalt Blue (last specified only for the "new NATS insignia", and had a semi-gloss finish). All these paints were manufactured to meet Specification M-485B, or 485C (M-485A paints were by now obsolete and no longer available from manufacturers). They were all described as Nitro-cellulose camouflage laquers, although obviously also intended for insignia, etc as well. Most (but not all) were available in only the non-specular finish. Thus one could order one case of M-485C Black, which contained 24 one quart cans of this paint, the stock number then being R52-L-1011. You can see where "Class 52" comes into the equation - a bit like the RAF Stores system, where Section 33 was the equivalent of "Class 52", and subsection 33A was aeronatitcal dopes, paints, etc. I will close off this post now to complete the SBD-specific questions at my leisure. David D
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Post by davidd on May 24, 2014 18:11:33 GMT 12
Gregg, SBD propeller questions. Although I have never seen a complete SBD (but DID examine the very interesting wreck of NZ5037 at Wigram, or more correctly at Weedons), I have taken an interest in standard (and non-standard) markings etc over the years, and have done a good deal of searching for references to same in Air Department archives, and other original sources. And I know it can be dangerous territory to roam through, and then to pronounce on such subjects. However I do stand by my contention that, unless we can find any reliable reference to those rubber spinners on our SBDS being anything other than black, then we should suppose that they probably were the black of natural (cured) rubber, complete with lamp-black impregnation, as for motor car tyres, or aircraft tyres for that matter. As to the propeller itself, I can only look at contemporary photographs of our SBD-3s and -4s at Seagrove, and try and come to some conclusion based on as many definitive views as can be found, if any actually exist, as to the possibilities/probabilities of the two contenders. Although not many of the photographs available to me clearly showed the prop tips, those that did were all in what appeared to me to be the standard matt black finish both sides, with yellow tips on the front faces only - this was the colour the US Navy called orange yellow, a one quart container was R52-L-1036, the one gallon container was R52-L-1038 - it was definitely a very strong yellow. The pre-war (that is pre-December 1941) US Navy of course used much more colourful propellers than that, polished duralium with glossy red, white and blue tips, possibly on both faces of each tip, but this sort of information would be available to the keen enthusiast in many of the good to excellent publications available, and on the internet. I do not intend to defend my beliefs in the red versus blue roundel centres on specific aircraft types, but will leave you free to choose, as it is not worth spilling blood over, but the sequence of the shrinking red centres does tend to support the idea that the red HAD to go in the end, and with it the return to a more "normal" size for that central dot. Actually the use of red in national identification markings of all Allied combatants in the South East Asia/Pacific arena all seemed to inevitably end up with the total deletion of the red paint - it just wasn't worth the hassle! At one stage in Wellington (Air Department) in late 1943 it was postulated that the RNZAF should abandon all use of distinctive national identification markings in the operational theatre and adopt the new-style American star and bar marking (the one WITHOUT the red outline) and be done with it! Somehow, they could never bring themselves to do this, so we kept our "distinctive" roundels to the end. David D
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Post by davidd on May 24, 2014 18:25:29 GMT 12
One other tiny thing in Peter's website re the SBD Dauntless. It seems to be a recent phenomenon that the type of radar array used on many WW2 aircraft, including the Dauntless (SBD) and the Avenger (TBF/TBM), was called the YAGI, as though this "word" is actually an acrynom. In fact it is simply a name, that of one of the co-inventors, one Professor Yagi of Tokyo university in the early 1920s. So these aerials should simply be referred to as Yagis, in my opinion. The other co-inventor probably was blessed with a much longer Japanese name, so tended to miss out for this reason in the popular literature in the West! I could look it up, but this might prove of interest to other curious souls who inhabit this Board. David D
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on May 24, 2014 23:13:14 GMT 12
David D. I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge with me. I've gone with your suggestions re the spinner and roundels as it is consistent with my understanding of the evolution of roundels at the time (I did wonder why the Dauntless was the exception to the small red centre), and after Dave H's glowing endorsement I would be a fool not to. As to the colours, I used the FS numbers for Intermediate Blue (FS 35164) and Light Gray (FS 36440) rather than the 485 & 495 specs. I'm hoping these are closer to the mark as the result looks approximately right (although darker than the colours on Peter's site) I haven't yet found how to control the specularity of the paint in the program I'm using, so mine is probably just a tad shinier than I'd like. Again David, a thousand "thank you"s. For you, sir.
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Post by trx850 on May 25, 2014 10:47:48 GMT 12
Hi to all. Dave has 'tapped me on the shoulder' to chime in on this discussion, so I'll add what I have collected on these early SBD's. The information used on those in my website (note, the SBD pages were done 14 years ago!)at the time it was created came from the following sources. Wings article by Cliff Jenks, January 1974: Scale Dimensions article by Bob Norton 1981: Military Wings Volume 2 by Brendan Deere: RNZAF The First Decade by Charles Darby. The most up to date reference on Kiwi SBD's is the Allied Wings No.5 booklet by Cliff Jenks with illustrations by Malcolm Laird. From the above book: Following are two pics of the early SBD's with the RNZAF roundels applied. There is no tonal difference between the outer blue and the central dot, I still stand by an all blue roundel, with the yellow outer ring only on the fusealge. As for the prop colours, black, front and rear with orange-yellow tips. The polished rear on blades had long vanished by then! As for the SBD-3 prop cone colour, I can only go on the obove references used. Hope this helps, Pete M.
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Post by davidd on May 25, 2014 11:08:05 GMT 12
One small detail that I have not made reference to previously is the apparent complete lack of fin flashes on the SBDs in New Zealand, for whatever reason. However the ones at Espiritu Santo and at Piva North seem to all be outfitted with fin flashes, majority postioned high ABOVE the 'last two' of serial number on the fin, apart from at least one very late replacement aircraft which had the flash BELOW the last two. No doubt this was mostly due to the same officer i/c of such things (engineer officer) stating that that was where these markings were to be applied, although his understanding would seem to be at variance with all his contemporaries. David D
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Post by davidd on May 26, 2014 13:51:23 GMT 12
Gregg, Have been giving further consideration to the roundel question re the SBDs at Seagrove, as I had noticed when studying those propellers that the clarity of these photographs (the ones taken at Seagrove that is) often left much to be desired. However I rechecked these images again later regarding the shades shown on the roundels, and have come to the momentous (for me!) conclusion that it would appear that everybody else is right and I am totally wrong as regards this qestion. I had been relying too much on the logic of my argument (which appears infallible) and did not take enough notice of the visual information available to everyone. However I have to also admit that the RNZAF was not at all logical by choosing to paint the roundel centres in blue when there was no requirement to do so, as these aircraft were never intended to be used in the forward area as they were only loaned in the first instance to get our crews familiar with the type. I was also assuming (dangerously, and for no particular good reason) that many of these photos were taken in latter part of 1943, but did not realize just how late those American markings (the white star in blue circle) were carried. The following quote from the report written by Mr R C Gibbons of BALM Paints, Wellington, is interesting to me as it is one of the very few contemporary records of RNZAF SBD markings. This report is dated 19/11/43, and covers his investigations at Rhukuhia (1 RD) between 1st and 12th November 1943. These visits were connected with complaints from the RNZAF about the poor adhesion of BALM paints (mainly on Hudsons which had been repainted with BALM products in recent times over the original factory finishes), including no doubt the blue-grey shade known to the stores system as 33B/N118. This qualified chemist was quite certain that the problem was not the paint itself, but the poor procedures and inadequate and unsuitable equipment used by RNZAF personnel, as well as fact that the airmen carrying out the work were unqualified ACH GDs (aircraft hands general duties) who had been conscripted to carry out this work. In fact there was no trade at all in the RNZAF at this time which equated in any way to the modern idea of a skilled aircraft finisher - it was just considered a menial job which could be carried out by any unskilled person who could read the instructions on the tin! Anyway, two aircraft were chosen for the trials, Hudson NZ2009 and Dauntless NZ5009 (the serial number similarities just a coincidence). Although all the procedures and materials used for refinishing parts of these aircraft are covered in the report, little is said of the colours themselves, apart from the following comment on the Dauntless: "SBD Aircraft - These planes bear American identification markings and have been finished in American materials. The condition of the paintwork is generally good though well weathered. Leading edges have in many cases been weathered back to the Chromate primer. After cleaning down, the old American finish presents a very smooth and hard surface for repainting. The original finish is a nitrocellulose type." It is also revealed that the whole aircraft was resprayed, but the port wing leading edges (back to 2 feet from l/e) had an alternative treatment, for comparison purposes.
Anyway, the reason for these details is that they confirm that (a) the original American finish and identification markings applied but with the later "NZ" numbers (in the 5001 and up range), and (b) that at least one aircraft was complelety repainted, and when. Several Dauntlesses visited Wigram in September 1943 which had similar markings, but had the earlier "NZ2xx" numbers. It is possible that a programme of respraying all these early SBDs was about to commence in November 1943 (probably because of their faded appearance, as alluded to above), but just how far this progressed is anybody's guess. However as most of the photographs taken of these aircraft in the ultimate scheme (with full RNZAF roundels) would seem to date from early January 1944, and specifically on the occasion of the big formation farewell flight over Auckland by the whole squadron on 6th January 1944, which celebrated the completion of their training programme, you can see that this was almost at the end of the flying careers of these aircraft in New Zealand. No. 26 Squadron took over the best of these SBDs very shortly afterwards, but they ceased flying them at the end of that month (and were renamed No. 20 Fighter Squadron), and apart from ferry flights to Hobsonville, this was the end of the line for the NZ SBDs. The crews of 25 Squadron were on a bush warfare course, and they departed for overseas at the end of January, about the same time that 26 Sqdn converted to fighters at Ardmore. If you plot the development of the so-called "distinctive" RNZAF roundel through 1943 and into 1944, it can be observed that it progressed from the RAF Type A and A1(with Type B on upper wing surfaces with camouflage) to the Type C at the end of 1942, then the introduction of the first totally "local" roundel about March 1943, which also seemed to introduce the phenomenon of having a red-centred version on the fuselage, with a blue/white/blue version on the wings. The earlier-type roundels were used on all RNZAF aircraft, but the new "RNZAF" ones seem to have been intended only for operational types, as these would be operated in overseas theatres, and usually under American operational control. It was the latter roundels which accompanied the P-40K Kittyhawks overseas in March/April 1943, and the Hudsons already at Espiritu Santo and Guadalcnala also adopted something similar - in fact they led the way in many respects. The problems with having the Americans shooting at our aircraft 'becasue they saw a flash of red' led to the decrease in size of the central red dots on fuselage roundels, and the later introduction of the miniature fin flashes. The diagonal bands for P-40s (introduced in June/July) as well as the white tails (introduced September) showed continuing attempts to satisfy American theatre requirements (and self-preservation), but these only applied to the forward area. Finally, the white bars were added to the wing and fuselage roundels in about mid-late November 1943, by which time the larger blue roundel centres were in vogue. The strange thing is that although everybody closely associated with these changes knew this progression, there still occurred many cases of aircraft remaining in New Zealand, but marked with schemes only required overseas. Of course this made sense in the case of P-40s and Hudsons, as well as the later PV-1s, TBFs and SBDs, and even transport aircraft, as they could be allocated to the forward area at short notice. The Seagrove Dauntlesses however, were never going to be sent forward, but this did not apply to the many P-40s at the Ohakea OTUs which also sported full "forward area" markings but ultimately never left the country. One reason for this seemingly unneccesarily frantic activity of roundel modification was that the policy for these special markings probably took into account fact that this work could most conveniently be undertaken in NZ where conditions were far more pleasant, and I gather that the forward units had better things to do than spend all day painting aircraft in the tropical heat when they were needed for more useful operational duty. However even this policy does not adequately explain why the obsolete SBD-3s and -4s received "forward area" markings when there was no intention to send them to that area. Possibly just a matter of somebody ordering that the new markings being applied should be 'to the latest pattern' without giving any thought as to how likely was the possibility of these elderly aircraft being ferried overseas. It could even be a simple matter of reducing the workload somewhat by only requiring two main colours for the roundels, rather than three. There was really no down-side to painting these two-colour roundels, and they probably looked just as good too. Sorry for the extended nature of this post, but I hope some (but not all) readers will find the above ramblings of some value. David D
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Post by baz62 on May 26, 2014 15:51:11 GMT 12
Not everyones interest but I have always found the variation on the RNZAF aircraft we operated of interest. being on the Avenger restoration team I smugly told Anthony Galbraith he had painted his model of NZ2504 wrong by painting the landing gear yellow and the prop hub black. He then (kindly I might add)proceeded to shoot me down when he pointed out it was painted in the earlier colour scheme (pre 1959). Taught me a lesson so I tend to ask if a colour scheme is correct rahter than tell them (unless I am 100% certain......even then it's a brave fellow!) Anyway that was an interesting read David and I'm sure there are still things to learn out there regarding these schemes!
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aotea
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
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Post by aotea on Aug 30, 2014 19:26:48 GMT 12
Just a quick query re: the image from trx850. Does anyone know the story of the large #6 on the fuselage/nose of the SBD in USN markings?
Its BuNo was 4559. The temp NZ serial was 208. It went on to get NZ5004. So what did the "6" represent?
I'm now creating a skin of an RNZAF Dauntless (NZ211) in these colours, but I'm not sure what number to place there.
Is it possible the illustrator mucked up the black serial and changed it to an "8" (I'm presuming that the drawing was done by hand with pens and paint, before the days of Photoshop and Undo)
Any ideas?
Regards
Greg
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