75 (NZ) Squadron uniform problem

[fwx]

I have heard of and read about a stand-off between Kiwi aircrew at 75 (NZ) Squadron and the powers-that-be, over an order to relinquish their RNZAF uniforms for RAF issue? I think that was the story? And I can't for the life of me find where it was that I saw this! It is referred to in another WONZ thread, but not enlarged on:

rnzaf.proboards.com/post/104699/thread


High Commissioner Bill Jordan had to visit the Squadron to sort it out, apparently when this famous photo was taken:



Does anyone know the full story and dates that this occurred? Some time between March and October 1941, going by the presence of Alec Rowe in the photo.

I can find several visits that Jordan made to the Squadron, but of course the ORB's don't go into this sort of detail.

Any help appreciated, thanks very much.

Cheers, Chris

[davidd]

Somewhat confused by reference to a dispute re "RNZAF" uniforms" being considerd unsuitable dress for some reason. As the RNZAF uniforms of this era were all but identical to the equivalent RAF uniforms (Officer and Airman types), apart from the gilt buttons having the addition of "NZ", and different airman cap badges. And these constituted the CORRECT dress for all RNZAF personnel anyway, by this time carrying New Zealand "Indentification" badges on the shoulder (wording "New Zealand", although some were produced in Canada in the early days with "RNZAF"). New Zealand members of the RAF would be wearing RAF uniforms, although as these were mostly officers, and some trained in NZ, completing their training at Wigram, the latter would have uniforms tailored in NZ. No doubt as certain uniform items were lost or worn out, British-made items could be purchased or issued to replace them, but for the life of me I cannot really see what the problem could have been. Perhaps it was NZ personnel in RAF who were wanting to wear the NZ shoulder identification badges (which were issued to RNZAF personnel from about August 1940 onwards, under Article XV of the Empire Air Training Scheme), which intially at least had not been contemplated for NZ members of RAF. I await developments of this theme with interest.
David D

[shorty]

maybe that should be gilt David rather guilt?

[davidd]

I think you are quite right Shorty, although some of these words lead strange lives - the sense I mean definitely is the "covered in gold" one, although of course these buttons were no such thing! However they were always officially described as such.
David

[pjw4118]

Interesting subject , one I havent come across before.
I do know that in the Middle East NZ crews wore a great mixture of uniform including Army battledress and even lemon squeezers.
It would be good to know more.

[oggie2620]

I have read that story too somewhere. I think it was because the RNZAF and RAAF members of Bomber Command had a rather more relaxed idea of what they should be wearing and how they should react to those higher to them. If I remember rightly a new Station Commander took them to task but as you rightly said Bill Jordan was appealed to and soon sorted it out
Regards
Dee

[suthg]

I know its a bit O/T and not 75 (NZ) Squadron but definitely about the RNZAF uniform, particularly a Kiwi Lancaster Bomber pilot but he flew with the Rhodesian 44 Squadron from late 44 to 45. His shoulder identification badge was definitely "New Zealand" and he trained in Canada from 42-43 I think.


FL Ian G Sutherland by suthg, on Flickr

[kiwijohn]

Interesting medal ribbon combination!

[fwx]

I wonder if this could be the source of the original "uniform" problem?

[davidd]

As the RNZAF Order authorising the introduction of the new RNZAF Identification badges was promulgated on 21st August 1940 (5 weeks after the report by S Wallingford), it may well be that the "problem" in 75 Squadron was the stimulus for this action. The RAF was, so far as I know, also listening to the Dominions at about this time regarding such national identification, so things were probably coming to a head anyway.
David D

[fwx]

Thanks David, It's interesting, because in Feb. 1940 H. Saunders, the Chief of the Air Staff, had listed shoulder badges as one of the recommended conditions when they were considering the issue of the formation of New Zealand Squadrons within the RAF: "... all New Zealanders serving in the Royal Air Force, whether in New Zealand Squadrons or Royal Air Force Squadrons, should wear on both shoulders of their tunic and greatcoat a worsted badge embroidered with the word (sic) 'New Zealand.'" Wallingford's report (5 months later) implies that personnel had already started wearing them, and his stance (or the Air Department's stance) was a complete 180 ..?

[davidd]

Regarding the description of "distinctive badges" in Wallingford's letter, and the expressed belief that the present RNZAF uniform was "sufficiently distinctive", it has to be pointed out that the "NZ" letters on RNZAF buttons were about 2 mm in height, and about half that size on F/S cap buttons. And I would refute the notion that the airman's cap badge was useful for national identification for the reason that it was for all practical purposes undecipherable to anybody not familiar with the badge in the first instance. Squeezing that many elaborately constructed letters into such a small space and then having them intertwined as they were simply created a dog's breakfast. As a child I used to study my father's collection of RNZAF cap badges and marvelled at their strange and tortured appearance!
When the possible introduction of identification badges for various Dominion airmen serving in or attached to the RAF in 1940 was being discussed, one of the senior officers serving with the RNZAF at this time was Wing Commander Grid Caldwell. And despite the introduction of (New Zealand) national identification badges during latter part of the Great War for pretty much the same reasons, "Grid" was dead against their reintroduction in the present war, and said so when specifically questioned on the subject in New Zealand. In his opinion, such badges would tend to undermine the unity of the British Commonwealth air forces to the detriment of morale (which I personally think was far too many steps too far). Later in the Second World War such national identification was generally acknowledged as essential to morale of the RAF as a whole, and these badges were in extremely widespread use throughout the service, despite their use being officially optional. And this was not only with Commonwealth airmen, but with practically every nationality serving in the RAF, including nationals of most European, South American and even Middle Eastern countries, as well as citizens of the USA, the latter in particular considering it to be almost essential (although usually members of the RCAF in the first instance.)
David D