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Post by Darren Masters on Jul 18, 2014 18:01:30 GMT 12
The manifest is not such a complicated piece of paper. GENDEC (crew list is easier) but yes, they should have been able to confirm earlier. 9M-MRD (according to my ADS-B) last visited AKL 6th July 2014. Still so so very sad at all this They thought it was a military jet, shot it down, bragged about it. When they found out it was civilian destroyed evidence of bragging. Someone still has to be held resposible!
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 18, 2014 18:28:46 GMT 12
from The Washington Post....When airliners get shot down, facts get skewed quicklyBy DAN LAMOTHE | 3:52PM EDT - Thursday, July 17, 2014Map by Gene Thorp/The Washington Post.THE suspected shootdown of a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine on Thursday brought quick denials from two camps: pro-Russian separatists said they had nothing to do with it, and so did the Ukrainian government.
That’s hardly a surprise. Rather, it simply reinforces the basic playbook that has been used when other commercial airliners have been shot down by military forces over the last three decades. Those involved in other high-profile incidents have covered up key details, only for the truth to emerge later when the immediate pressure of the moment had subsided.
One obvious example involves the United States. On July 3rd, 1988, a helicopter from the USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser, came under fire from Iranian gunboats while over the Persian Gulf. Seeing an aircraft speeding their way, the ship’s crew opened fire with two surface-to-air missiles — and brought down a commercial jet, Iran Air Flight 655, carrying 290 people. Navy officials said the Vincennes crew thought it was an Iranian fighter jet, and a threat to their safety.
As outlined in The Washington Post the next day, the Pentagon at first denied Iranian accusations that the Navy had shot down an airliner. Within hours, however, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs at the time, Admiral William J. Crowe Jr., said the United States had confirmed the incident.
Even then, Crowe moved quickly to to back the skipper of the ship, Captain William C. Rogers III. He said the Airbus had flown four miles west of the usual commercial airline route, that the pilot ignored repeated radio warnings from the Vincennes to change course, and that its altitude was decreasing as it got closer. U.S. officials also said repeatedly the ship was in international waters, which would put the Iranians in the wrong for opening fire on the ship in the first place.
Few of those details turned out to be true. The Vincennes and helicopter were actually in Iranian waters and airspace, subsequent investigations found. ABC News, among others, later reported that the plane actually was flying where it should have been and had already turned away from the Vincennes when it was shot down. U.S. officials also said the helicopter that came under fire was checking on a vessel that had issued a distress call, but later investigations show the ship did not exist.
In another airliner shootdown, the Soviet Union targeted Korean Air Lines Flight 007 on September 1st, 1983, over the Sea of Japan while the Boeing 747 airliner was flying from New York to Seoul, South Korea, with a refueling stop in Anchorage, Alaska. Two hundred sixty-nine people were killed. In that case too, the responsible party — the Soviet Union — initially denied being involved. Officials in Moscow eventually acknowledged that the plane was shot down by an Su-15 fighter jet, but insisted the commercial aircraft was involved in “espionage activities”.
In 2001, another shootdown involved Russia and Ukraine and stoked tensions between the two nations. In that case, Siberian Airlines Flight 1812 crashed into the Black Sea on October 4th, 2001, after being struck by a Ukrainian missile. The plane was carrying 78 people at the time, and was flying from Tel Aviv, Israel, to Novosibirsk, Russia.
Within days, Russian officials said they had discovered pieces of S-200 anti-aircraft missile at the crash site and accused the Ukrainians of taking the aircraft down. Ukraine denied it for more than a week before finally acknowledging it and saying it was a training mistake by the country’s military.www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly
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Post by DragonflyDH90 on Jul 18, 2014 19:48:45 GMT 12
I think you'll find Dave that the always did know they would prefer to attempt to contact family prior to releasing a definite on nationality to avoid unnecessary trauma for those that can't currently account for loved ones movements. Fairly common occurrence to hold of on these kind of details until families are contacted.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2014 20:21:55 GMT 12
Seems a bit odd then to lie to the media and not follow the same practice as most of the other nations who all released their figures before 9am this morning.
Actually wait, what am I saying, it's not at all unusual for the Govt to lie to the media..
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Post by beagle on Jul 18, 2014 20:39:09 GMT 12
I heard Helen was looking going to the same aid forum in Melbourne that a few of the pax were and could have been on the same flight.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 18, 2014 21:38:02 GMT 12
(click on the picture to read the news story)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2014 22:30:22 GMT 12
We'd never be that lucky Beagle.
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Post by bell407 on Jul 18, 2014 23:02:22 GMT 12
Some asses need kicking over this.
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Post by Darren Masters on Jul 19, 2014 17:19:30 GMT 12
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Post by Luther Moore on Jul 19, 2014 18:19:29 GMT 12
One Australian family have lost members on both Malaysian flights!
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 19, 2014 19:20:44 GMT 12
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 20, 2014 11:26:31 GMT 12
(click on the picture to read the news story)
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jul 23, 2014 11:54:21 GMT 12
from the Los Angeles Times....Vladimir Putin evades the truth in Malaysian jet disasterBy DAVID HORSEY | 5:00AM PDT - Tuesday, July 22, 2014VLADIMIR PUTIN may be many things — a coldblooded thug, a power-hungry autocrat, a paranoid xenophobe, a self-impressed narcissist -- but he is not a great leader. Hard-liners in Russia and the United States are convinced that tough guys rule best, but Putin is proving what a fallacy that is.
In his first years as president of Russia, Putin seemed to be different — a smart operator who was ready to modernize his creaky, leaking barge of a country. President George W. Bush looked into his eyes and thought he saw a soul. Bush was wrong. Putin’s icy eyes proved to be more like windows into the hollow heart of a Mafia don.
Instead of modernizing, Putin and his cronies turned the Kremlin into a kleptocracy bankrolled by oil money — Saudi Arabia with nuclear missiles. To undercut his rivals and stifle dissent, Putin exploited the deep suspicion of outsiders that has long been part of the Russian political culture. But that was not an entirely cynical tactic. Putin also shared that deep distrust. The West, in Putin’s mind, was encircling Russia and whittling away at what was left of its empire.
Having witnessed the loss of the Soviet satellites and other regions that were historically within the Russian orbit, Putin was not willing to lose any more. Ukraine became the trip wire. Long an integral part of greater Russia, Ukraine’s two decades of independence was an affront. To see Ukraine go the way of Poland or Lithuania could not be tolerated.
Putin had his protege, Viktor Yanukovich, running the government in Kiev. But the more Yanukovich tugged Ukraine back into the embrace of Moscow, the more his people resisted. Weary of Yanukovich’s Putin-like autocratic tendencies, young Ukrainians yearned, not for the past union with Russia, but for a future as part of Europe.
We know what happened next. Yanukovich was ousted by a revolt in the streets of Kiev. Putin sent in Russian troops to seize Crimea and armed pro-Russian militants in eastern Ukraine. And then, as preliminary evidence strongly suggests, one of those missiles supplied by Russia was shot into the sky and brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
Now, like a petulant adolescent, Putin blames everyone but himself for the disaster that has turned the world against him. In no way is he willing to admit that his ruthless and duplicitous actions in Ukraine created the conditions that led to the deaths of 298 innocent travelers.
Putin has boxed himself in. The fierce nationalism that he has encouraged at home and in his ruling political circle could be turned against him if he admits fault and backs down in Ukraine. But continued lies and defiance of international norms will lead to harsher economic sanctions from Europe and the U.S. and further isolation of his country.
Sure, Putin is a tough guy, but more supple leadership could have produced a vastly different result. A better leader would have allowed Ukraine to be Russia’s equal partner rather than conniving to make it Russia’s vassal. Instead, Vladimir Putin will very likely be remembered as the failed Russian leader who lost Ukraine.www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-putin-evades-truth-20140721-story.html
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Post by beagle on Jul 23, 2014 18:29:21 GMT 12
I suppose air dropping 10000 US troops on the border with Russia might just make it worse but just feel like going in there and letting lose.
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Post by noooby on Jul 24, 2014 7:28:50 GMT 12
Now I'm all for finding the people who did this and getting some justice. One of the passengers was a former boss of mine in Mozambique, but, I hate it when the US demands this and that, yet they did the exact same thing to an Iranian airliner in the Persian Gulf. They "mistook" an Airbus A300, on a controlled flightplan, in controlled airspace, squawking it assigned transponder code, continually climbing, for a Grumman F-14 Tomcat descending to attack the fleet. Oh, and then, they refuse to apologise, even though they paid out compensation. So yes, let's get some justice for this atrocity, but sometimes the USA needs to remember that those who live in glasshouse should no throw stones! Here is the link to the incident, you guys should read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655You never think as you fly high over all these countries, that you could be in danger from the ground. I've lived and worked in 42 different countries around the world, including 5 of the 'stans and I never ever thought this would be something for me to worry about! RIP
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Post by rayo on Jul 24, 2014 14:08:57 GMT 12
I agree with nooby's sentiments for similar reasons (having worked in the Balkins). The people from the old Communist Bloc don't always quite see the guiding hand of Uncle Sam as a blessing!!!! To be a little fairer though if I recall the US ship was under attack at the same time.
Another interesting little indicator of a potential issue in this particular location that appears to have been missed as apparently Aeoflot stopped flying over the Ukriane in March 14!!!!!
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 24, 2014 14:52:57 GMT 12
The difference here is that the US government doesn't have such a stanglehold over its media, unlike the Russians, so in the USA, any reporter can easily shoot down (pardon the pun) any denial of US culpability in such an incident, whereas in Russia you tow the line and present what you are told to present. Take a look at this clip and some of the ludicrous theories the Russian media is proposing: www.cbsnews.com/videos/russian-media-fuels-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-rumours/The bodies were already dead?! Ridiculous! Also, the papers report the aircraft that shot the airliner down was an Su-25, which we all know is a tank buster, which although it can carry short range infra-red air-to-air missles for self defence, cannot reach 33,000 feet in height, although the clip did show an Su-27, which does equip the Ukraine air force. All of this smacks of Russian guilt and a pathetic attempt to cover their own asses.
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Post by rayo on Jul 24, 2014 18:38:42 GMT 12
Sorry I must have got the wrong end of what Nooby said because the merits of the media in Russia and the USA didn't seem to come into it. I thought what he was saying was if the Americans want to be credible they need to be mindfull of there own past deeds and not be holier than thou.
Don't get me wrong this is a shocking act and the Russian attitude along with the coverup to it has been despicable, showing their true colours.
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Post by noooby on Jul 26, 2014 4:50:02 GMT 12
I'm not referring to media at all, I'm referring to actions taken by governments/troops on the ground. I don't really trust what the media says anymore. Heck, half of them can't even spell! There is no doubt that reporting in that part of the world is not to be taken literally. I remember in Nigeria seeing a goat on the front page of the newspaper. He had been arrested for robbing a bank. The police chased the bank robber down the street, but when they ran around the corner, the robber had gone and a goat was standing there. Obviously the bank robber was a shape-shifter and had turned himself into a goat, so they arrested said goat and put him in prison until he changed back to a human so that he could be questioned. I am not kidding. That was 5 years ago. I wonder if the goat is still in prison??? I guess what I am trying to say is that the media will tell you want they want to tell you, and people in different parts of the world believe in different things, many of which we cannot fathom.
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Post by macnz on May 18, 2015 20:02:21 GMT 12
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