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Post by turboNZ on Apr 6, 2005 21:22:09 GMT 12
This silly business over in the Yankee Land forum thread got my thinking.. Say you're a farmer here in NZ and one day after walking across your vast property, you discover a warbird wreck. For arguments sake, its a RNZAF-TAF P-51D thats fairly complete, has the Merlin still and is by AFC-standards completely restorable. (BTW there's no body in it or anything like that, just abandoned/derelict). You make enquiries and it's been missing since the end of WW2 and struck off the records. Can you lay claim to it under NZ Laws or can the RNZAF claim ownership of it?
What you guys/gals think ?
TNZ
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Post by Bruce on Apr 6, 2005 21:40:29 GMT 12
I'm not entirely sure... a year or so ago I saw on TradeMe an auction for a piece of Ventura Bomber. In fact this was the Ventura that hit a C47 near whenuapai and took off its outer wing - The C47 managed to make it back to base! The relic was a chunk of leading edge possibly off the tailplane. It had been recovered from the crash site in the Riverhead forest. I was unsure about bidding on it as it was a war relic recovered from someone elses (Forestry) land and was part of a NZ government aircraft. I do know however of several large sections ofaircraft being recovered from crash sites by collectors and the ownership isnt questioned - Parts such as Charles Darby's fairey Gordon, the Oxford and DH60s recovered off Mt Egmont and the Ruahine ranges, parts of the subritsky Vincent (no Comment) and various Harvards over the years. I know relics from the pacific and USN wrecks in the great lakes have been subject to extensive legal action - nothing in NZ yet though.....
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 6, 2005 21:44:18 GMT 12
Yeah I thought the same, Bruce. It seems to be a hot point overseas, ie witness the debacle over that lake-recovered Brewster Buffalo !!! ..and also the US Navy War Graves in the sea preventing deep sea aircraft excavation. Like you said, only a matter of time before our lovely defence-minded (cough) government sees a money making opportunity and imposes tarriffs or heavy taxes on such activities !!!! TNZ
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2005 18:04:01 GMT 12
My opinion is that it is still property of the NZ Government and the RNZAF Museum might become interested in the wreck. I don't think an individual can claim it as theres, like finders-keepers.
The Hudson engine dredged up from the sea off the west coast last year went to the RNZAF, didn't it?
Oh, and it'd be a very rare TAF P51D if it had been there since the end of the war!! ;D
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 7, 2005 19:07:30 GMT 12
oops,...TAF = post-war...oops.... ;D Duh me !! Ah well...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2005 19:45:49 GMT 12
Unless the TAF had Mustangs prewar too to complement their Baffins in this HYPERTHETICAL question ;D ;D
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 7, 2005 20:25:10 GMT 12
Well what I want to know is how many farmers in NZ have still got mist-blowers on their farms ? You know the kind, the 27 litre 12 cylinder MIST-blowers !!! What do you reckon ? Maybe they've all been requistioned or blown-up or just stopped and corroded or lovingly stored away as their value increases day by day..... TNZ
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2005 22:24:52 GMT 12
I think you mean FROST-blowers, also known as P51D Frostangs. When you get your Neiuport flying, maybe some low level flights up and down the valleys around Nelson, Moutere and Motueka with a spotter is in order. If you find any Hudsons or Vincents, I bags them!
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 7, 2005 22:48:29 GMT 12
hmmm,...me thinks getting off the ground again in the middle of Nelson Valley in my Nieuport 12 with Mr Homewood in the front with a Merlin engine on his lap (with a blanket over it of course for secrecy purposes) may be a mission and may require a more than normal super-dooper F-84F-type runway run !!!!!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2005 0:42:16 GMT 12
Easy - unbolt the rotary and strap the merlin onto the Nieuport. MORE POWER. With that must thrust you can tow the roitary behind on a rope. ;D
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 8, 2005 7:14:09 GMT 12
Upping thehorsepower from 150 to 1450 shouldn't be a problem for the flimsy airframe. It will remain intact as the engine shoots off to around Wellington (or Christchurch depending on which way we're heading !!)..... ;D
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Post by Bruce on Apr 8, 2005 8:26:41 GMT 12
Just to divert attention of Merlin - Neuports and other such important issues what about relics that had been disposed by the RNZAF and were thereafter "Misplaced" coming to mind are the bits of Allison and P&W engines down the bank at Rukuhia and other bits of ex Military material (Like a Bren Gun Carrier) that may turn up in your back yard. I'd guess then it would be pretty clearly the landowners property - or would it?
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 8, 2005 9:04:04 GMT 12
and I was just starting to have fun.....ah well...
Back to the actual thread discussion..well I reckon if the military buries (ie the said Bren Gun Carrier), then it's struck off the books and not owned by the Government/Military anymore.
If you buy a property then you are purchasing everything in the land, buried or otherwise IMO.
It's like if you throw out a TV at the tip, and then decide a week later you want it back....the tip own it now, and will charge you $10 to get it back !!!!
just my 3c worth (2c + government tax)
TNZ
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2005 11:22:15 GMT 12
"If you buy a property then you are purchasing everything in the land, buried or otherwise IMO. "
Not true - I understnad that any minerals, etc like gold, oil and anything usable under your property is automatically Government property if discovered and you then have to claim the right to mine it, etc. I'm not entirely clear on this law but I think that's the gist of it. You don't own everything under your land - you don't own the sewerage pipes, that's council proerty, etc.
I would also think any aircraft parts found down the bank at Rukuhia are still the property of the scrap merchant they were sold to.
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Post by Bruce on Apr 8, 2005 11:52:01 GMT 12
...However if an object was intentionally discarded (such as items thrown over the bank at Rukuhia,) they then become public domain - finders keepers. However if the land is privately owned and no permission is sought then the finder is therefore acting illegally and therefore cannot claim rights to items found. how does that pseudo - legalese sound.... I think thats how slavage laws go. A while ago someone found some treasure in the Carribean and the state (whichever it was) was caliming it, until the salvors proved that the items (Gold plates) were intentionally thrown into the waters by an ancient civilisation to appease the weather gods. The items were therefore intentionally discarded and the finder had salvage rights.
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Post by turboNZ on Apr 8, 2005 12:25:02 GMT 12
Was the Bren-Gun carrier intentionally discarded ? I was under the impression it was. Therefore being on private property, they have first digs at it (excuse the pun!)
Is that correct or not ?
TNZ
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Post by Bruce on Apr 8, 2005 19:17:47 GMT 12
Aparently the scrap merchant who dug it out took it - they said that it was rusted beyond repair - mind you there are some dedicated restorers out there who would have liked to have a go at it. The issue of intentionally discarding things has not stopped the US Navy claiming the Wildcats and Helldivers recovered from the Great Lakes - where they had been intentionally dumped overboard at the end of the war. But then the US Military doesnt have to act in a lawful manner - as we know....
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Post by hairy on Apr 20, 2005 10:10:15 GMT 12
Just to throw in my two cents worth, the RNZAF has signed over the title on known wrecks to private indivuals in the recent past (I am talking about the last 20years or so) so if you find one of these wrecks talk to the right people and it will probably become yours legally, especially if the RNZAF Museum already has an example on hand.
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biggles7
Leading Aircraftman
Rest in Peace TT Bland ! In my early Harvard "fossicking" days you were a huge influence!
Posts: 8
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Post by biggles7 on Jun 1, 2017 20:35:31 GMT 12
I read this thread with interest and can only reply to my particular situation in 1976 in which I requested the permission to recover two Harvards (NZ977 and NZ989) from the Dee Stream area in the Inland Kaikoura Ranges after a March 1942 accident in which one of the trainee pilots was fatally injured. Permission was granted on the 7th July 1976 from the then Minister of Defence Allan Mcready. The letter contained certain conditions including the fact that the remains of one of the pilots was interned at the site> All of these requests were carried out with dignity and respect. Prior to the recovery of these aeroplanes in 1983 the Airforce Museum showed interest in obtaining these aircraft so I really don't know if the Museum has overruling salvage rights to these WW2 relics today . In the 1970s I think the interest in vintage aeroplanes and archaeology was just beginning, particularly in NZ , so it was probably a lot easier to get rights of salvage when I was in the Harvard trail back then.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 1, 2017 20:44:31 GMT 12
What happened to the two Harvard wrecks after you recovered them, biggles?
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