|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2014 17:38:10 GMT 12
It seems pretty clear now that the New Zealand Government are taking the country into a war as part of the coalition against the Islamic State, which is the biggest threat to the world since Nazi Germany.
Do you support the New Zealand Defence Force's involvement in this? And if so, what level of involvement would you like to see New Zealand take?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2014 17:38:51 GMT 12
By the way I'd bet the NZ SAS are already there anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Oct 15, 2014 17:41:52 GMT 12
Yep, we were almost certainly there “by lunchtime!”
|
|
|
|
Post by alanw on Oct 15, 2014 19:14:27 GMT 12
Reading various media postings from various Governments/military responses, it appears that the powers like the US/Britain etc are happy to bomb the smithereens out of the IS "Infidels". It appears that the IS folks are wanting to have a ground war, obviously to beat the tar out of "We" the Devils own (God is on the side of their jihad  ). I believe that if we the Allied Forces can take out their weapons dumps and cause attrition to their ability to wage any type of warfare then we are doing well. However....... read on From what I read this morning, it appears that these IS folks have some "Well to Do" sponsors - go figure. As fast as the Allies can destroy the IS ability to wage anything, their wealthy sponsors can help them buy more. How do we stop thousands of AK47's etc from falling into their hands?  ? There are people out only too willing to supply on demand. Ultimately it will (I believe) fall on the Kurds and Northern Iraqis to fight back with the Allies (including us) to support them. Some hard Yakka ahead, but like history before Good can and will triumph over evil (namely us over them) Regards Alan |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 15, 2014 19:37:03 GMT 12
A bit of liquid sunshine will sort them out. Or spray the ISIS held region with ebola.
|
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Oct 15, 2014 19:53:04 GMT 12
In retrospect, leaving Saddam in place keeping the lid on the fundy-mentalist religious nutters may have been the better option.
Some people just don't go well with democracy and need a brutal dictator too keep them in line.
|
|
|
|
Post by beagle on Oct 15, 2014 21:25:36 GMT 12
god I love napalm
|
|
|
|
Post by madmac on Oct 15, 2014 21:34:07 GMT 12
ISIS is the result of doing the job incorrectly the first time, unless they have a really plan to address the power vacuum (& economic, etc etc) there is no point even bombing anything.
The only functioning state in the region is Kurdistan, which isn't a state at all. To allow them to fight the ground war alone will just result in population burnout (think Laos in the Vietnam war where in at least one ethic group there were no men left between 12 and 65 by the end.
If we want stable solution it will have to end in a Kurdish state, if not a greater reshaping of the map and that's not on the table yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Oct 16, 2014 0:26:31 GMT 12
To paraphrase the song: "What a wonderful world". There's a certain irony in the most famous quotation of "evil overcoming only if good men do nothing" came from an Irishman [allegedly]! ISIS has already set civilisation back a couple of centuries with its penchant for rape and slavery and public beheadings as a modus operandi, and if nothing is done about it, they will become the biggest terrorist threat to the rest of us the world has ever known. These guys will make Al Quada look like rank amateurs.
If New Zealand wants to be a citizen of the world and our application for a seat on the Security Council indicates we do, then that citizenship comes with a price. We either belong to a world society or we don't, and as we clearly do then doing nothing is not an option. We have had politicians in the past who failed completely to appreciate that point, and also failed to recognise that international trade is inextricably linked to foreign policy : one can't stand without the other.
Unfortunately, one of those politicians famously emasculated the only means we had at punching an aggressor's lights out. We don't have an air "force" any more. So we're really into tokenism as far as our involvement is concerned: we can only go to this war as part of a co-operative venture with other countries. That said, we are limited in what we can do, but we are good at what we do well and the NZSAS seems to be the best option and as Dave has said I wouldn't mind betting they are already there!
I note, incidentally, that the Brits SAS are already there, and recently stopped a two-truck convoy of Jihadis with just two shots from this fella!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSaWJDZ7oQ
|
|
|
|
Post by alanw on Oct 16, 2014 15:50:19 GMT 12
If New Zealand wants to be a citizen of the world and our application for a seat on the Security Council indicates we do, then that citizenship comes with a price. We either belong to a world society or we don't, and as we clearly do then doing nothing is not an option. We have had politicians in the past who failed completely to appreciate that point, and also failed to recognise that international trade is inextricably linked to foreign policy : one can't stand without the other. Unfortunately, one of those politicians famously emasculated the only means we had at punching an aggressor's lights out. We don't have an air "force" any more. So we're really into tokenism as far as our involvement is concerned: we can only go to this war as part of a co-operative venture with other countries. That said, we are limited in what we can do, but we are good at what we do well and the NZSAS seems to be the best option and as Dave has said I wouldn't mind betting they are already there! I note, incidentally, that the Brits SAS are already there, and recently stopped a two-truck convoy of Jihadis with just two shots from this fella!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSaWJDZ7oQ AMEN Phil, you hit the nail on the head about our place on the world stage. With the Brit SAS 50 Cal rifle, I'll bet it was one hit each to the engine block of each vehicle- no going anywhere after that  |
|
|
|
Post by craig on Oct 18, 2014 6:46:43 GMT 12
I don't think we Westerners have a hope of imposing any long-term stability to this region. Religion has a lot to answer for....
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Oct 18, 2014 11:12:45 GMT 12
Once upon a time.......and yea though my memory of history at school is getting dimmer by the day, I do recall that there is just one English King who has been accorded the honour of a statue outside the Houses of Parliament and he is Richard the Lionheart, who sits on a horse wearing chain mail and waving a huge sword.Moving right along [to maintain your interest and to stick to the topic!]Richard had sworn to "take the cross"; that is to go on a Crusade to the Holy land and clear it of Muslims who at that time controlled all the important, to Christians that is,historical sites. Muslims you see, were seen as a threat to Christian Europe. Today, we go to watch the ABs smash the Boks at Westpac, but then they went on a crusade to kill people who were non-believers. Horses for courses you might say.Anyway, Richard duly arrived in Palestine on his crusade, at the port of Acre, which various European crusaders had tried to capture but failed [no surprises there then!] but once Richard arrived he took the city within five weeks. That made him a solid-gold hero who could do no wrong, and he proved that when he felt the Arabs were being a bit slow in implementing the surrender agreement he paraded 2700 hostages in front of the city and had them beheaded by his Knights. Now, to cut a long story short, if we can faithfully record such an instance on our history, why do we think the Arabs can't? As I said earlier, ISIS intends to set back civilisation 900 years or so and seem to be doing it easy at present, so they must be stopped or they'll be doing it in Hyde Park, or Martin Square, or even South Auckland for all we know. Go back to sleep now!
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Oct 18, 2014 11:34:56 GMT 12
Well, New Zealand has gained a seat on the UN Security Council, and not by a marginal vote but with a huge vote of confidence which ensures that for the next two years NZ will be watched for not only what it says, but what it does. Anyone know of a good war we can get into? There's one I know of which is a good old-fashioned Western, with the bad guys wearing black and the good guys in white.
|
|
|
|
Post by alanw on Oct 18, 2014 12:48:33 GMT 12
Well, New Zealand has gained a seat on the UN Security Council, and not by a marginal vote but with a huge vote of confidence which ensures that for the next two years NZ will be watched for not only what it says, but what it does. Anyone know of a good war we can get into? There's one I know of which is a good old-fashioned Western, with the bad guys wearing black and the good guys in white. Reading your comments Phil, reminded me that 75 years ago last month New Zealand went to bat against an Ideology that threatened our way of life. The armies of the this Ideology initially swept all before them. It had fanatics and those who saw the dream, and those who did what they had to for fear of retribution. This ideology caused mass genocide of people who were considered "Untermensch" Inferior- sub-human or who would not openly adopt the "Right Way of Life". Slowly the tide turned, but many lives were lost. Eventually those who fought for true freedom were joined by one party who wanetd nothing to do with this whole show. Then the Ideology's partner attacked the party who wanted nothing to do with the whole affair. Eventualy the ideology and partners were defeated, millions were dead and countries in ruin. I'm sure all will know I refer to WWII and our fight againts the Axis powers. There are some in our own country think we should never have fought in WWII, it was not our fight -Really??? Those same people think we should not be involved in this issue- Really?? What about the humanitarian side of things? Contrary to belief we do not live in a "Benign Environment". The past two decades have shown that there are ideological fanatics who will kill you in you own country if need be. I personally don't have an issue with Muslims, I have friends and work associates who are of that faith. What I hate are these IS types who are so blinded by their fanaticism, that they are much like the Nazi's 75 years ago, that kill innocent folks, just trying to get by in life. Regards Alan |
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Oct 19, 2014 11:28:02 GMT 12
Muslims don't have a monopoly on deluded fundy-mental ideology....  (click on the picture)I've heard similar stuff from Iran and other mad places around the world. |
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 19, 2014 11:53:43 GMT 12
The news reported last night that fighter squadrons of the Iraqi Air Force have now swapped sides and are aligning with the Islamic State. We may see some air battles coming up very soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Oct 21, 2014 9:14:13 GMT 12
Most reliable intelligence sources [if "reliable intelligence" isn't an oxymoron!] but including US Air Command. have it that there is no such thing as an Iraqi air force as any usable aircraft were all destroyed in 2003. What has been reported, however, in such august publications as the Washington Post which has its ear to the ground around Foggy Bottom, is a rumour that three former Syrian Mig 21/23 types have been seen flying after pilot instruction from former Iraqi pilots. US Air Command is denying they exist and may well be correct because these aircraft are very old and anyone flying them would be either incredibly brave or stupid, or both. Just imagining that they can get one up, I would put money on it that there will will be a photo on the wall of every Mirage,F16,Raptor,and Tornado pilots' crewroom and there will be a sweep running as to who nails the first one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Calum on Oct 21, 2014 13:48:22 GMT 12
IIRC the only "fighters" Iraq has are Iranian suppled Su 25's.
|
|
|
|
Post by mumbles on Oct 21, 2014 18:44:20 GMT 12
|
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Oct 28, 2014 20:21:30 GMT 12
|
|
).
? There are people out only too willing to supply on demand.
