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Post by artro219 on Aug 2, 2015 19:51:54 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 2, 2015 20:18:30 GMT 12
Very cool, thanks for posting!
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Post by mumbles on Aug 2, 2015 22:03:40 GMT 12
Welcome I am modeller with Polish and building his Corsair in scale 1/32, I was looking for some unorthodox painting. Searching the internet I came across a painting F4U-1A Corsair, NZ5272 / NZ5307, No.1 Servicing Unit, Henderson Field, Guadalcanal October 1944. Painting I really liked and I decided to do such a thing. Decals Xtradecal have a strange color blue, but as I read it were different shades of blue in characters RNZAF.  I love it when references like these are around. Excellent work. |
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Post by general on Aug 3, 2015 11:21:41 GMT 12
Superb approach to paint. I like that a lot!
regards
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Post by alanw on Aug 3, 2015 20:27:36 GMT 12
Hi - While i realise that its a modeller perogitive to build as they see, some observations. I have seen a few incarnationas of the NZ5272/NZ5307 hybrids since the 1/32 Tamiya F4U-1A came out. Whilst as a Kiwi I'm chuffed that people will build an aircraft from our Air Force, why do modellers insist on fading this airframe or others to the unnatural Nth degree? There are some things to consider. 1) NZ5272 had only flown operationally for about 4-6 weeks before its accident (going by ADF Serials Website). When obviously reduced to produce (spares) the rear of the airframe sat in a bone yard for either 4-10 months (depending on whether the entry for NZ5272 or NZ5307 in ADF Serials) so its paint scheme (USN 3 Tone) was quite fresh and had not suffered the rigours of operational life like other RNZAF F4U-1a's. Its paint scheme would fade under the Pacific sun during its time in the bone yard, but IMHO not to the point where the Non Specular Sea Blue, or Semi Gloss Sea Blue on the tail planes is faded out of exisitance. If I were to pick an colour photo that would best describe how a weathered F4U should look check out ths USMC F4U-1 Corsair (as similar to Corsairs sharing the same air strips as RNZAF ones. s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e6/67/be/e667befefefa4f4b1ffb5fe67c7532a1.jpg2 NZ5307 was a F4U-1A, that was repainted in overall Glossy Sea Blue after assembly (that courtesy of Pete Mossong). NZ307 like NZ5272 also had a very short operational life of about 2-4 weeks before an accident (again per ADF Serials entry). According to the entry for NZ5307 the coupling of NZ5272/5307 it was October 1944. Obviously NZ5307 sat in a bone yard as did NZ5272, at least till October 1944, so again not overly weathered. I guess it must be said that once togther the airframe would have flown frequestly operationally, so eventually suffered weathering, but again not to the Nth degree. As far as the Portside overly weathered roundel, I have to disagree. I believe that the sun in the photo with the wing folded F4U is simply causing the Roundel to appear faded, look at the fuselage roundel, its sun lit also. I seriously doubt the upper wing Roundels on RNZAF Corsairs would fade like that, there are loads of photos with wings spread allowing consistant weathering on both sides. Another point to remenber is that the Pacific Roundel was painted directly over the US Insignia. If the RNZAF Roundel, faded that badly the US Star would show through especeially the Insignia Blue - From Pete Mossongs website. rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/nz5064p.jpgFinally, in fading the Pacific Roundel, the following needs to be noted the upper Starboard Pacific Roundel and lower wing Portside Pacific Roundel, the edging around the white bar should be RNZAF Roundel Blue, not insignia blue (US aircraft of that time frame only had roundels in 4 positions). Fading, I belive the Roundel would look a more Blue Grey (more blue than grey) than light blue. Its my opinion, that a model of an RNZAF Corsair, built by Pete Mossong has the right fading colour, for the weathering on the airframe hsfeatures.com/features04/images/lil2.jpgRegards Alan |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 3, 2015 22:42:35 GMT 12
As far as the Portside overly weathered roundel, I have to disagree. I believe that the sun in the photo with the wing folded F4U is simply causing the Roundel to appear faded, look at the fuselage roundel, its sun lit also. I seriously doubt the upper wing Roundels on RNZAF Corsairs would fade like that, there are loads of photos with wings spread allowing consistant weathering on both sides. Actually Alan, from ground crew members I have spoken with, the New Zealand wing roundels did fade rapidly because the NZ-made paint they used was of very inferior quality and did not stand up well to the rigours of the sun, the torrential downpours and the coral dust at all well. They faded and the paint got that whitish look like it was crazed. I have been told it was a standard practice on the Servicing Units for any technical staff who had finished their own regular work and were perhaps idle to pick up a pot of paint and touch up the roundels on the aeroplanes that required it. I was told that this was because of two reasons, the ground crews were very proud of their unique kiwi roundels and wanted them to look smart as possible even of the rest of the aircraft was getting tatty; and the other reason was because a faded roundel might blend with the wing and thus be misidentified, and they did not want any of their aircraft and aircrews shot down by the trigger happy American fighter pilots who could not recognise the roundels. The one in the photo with its wings up has a faded upper wing roundel for sure, the faded edges of which look like there have been some slapdash touch ups done, and the underside roundel is possibly one that has been touched up more recently or just not so exposed to rain and sun because the RNZAF seldom raised the wings on their aircraft. |
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Post by alanw on Aug 4, 2015 15:40:37 GMT 12
As far as the Portside overly weathered roundel, I have to disagree. I believe that the sun in the photo with the wing folded F4U is simply causing the Roundel to appear faded, look at the fuselage roundel, its sun lit also. I seriously doubt the upper wing Roundels on RNZAF Corsairs would fade like that, there are loads of photos with wings spread allowing consistant weathering on both sides. Actually Alan, from ground crew members I have spoken with, the New Zealand wing roundels did fade rapidly because the NZ-made paint they used was of very inferior quality and did not stand up well to the rigours of the sun, the torrential downpours and the coral dust at all well. They faded and the paint got that whitish look like it was crazed. I have been told it was a standard practice on the Servicing Units for any technical staff who had finished their own regular work and were perhaps idle to pick up a pot of paint and touch up the roundels on the aeroplanes that required it. I was told that this was because of two reasons, the ground crews were very proud of their unique kiwi roundels and wanted them to look smart as possible even of the rest of the aircraft was getting tatty; and the other reason was because a faded roundel might blend with the wing and thus be misidentified, and they did not want any of their aircraft and aircrews shot down by the trigger happy American fighter pilots who could not recognise the roundels. The one in the photo with its wings up has a faded upper wing roundel for sure, the faded edges of which look like there have been some slapdash touch ups done, and the underside roundel is possibly one that has been touched up more recently or just not so exposed to rain and sun because the RNZAF seldom raised the wings on their aircraft. Hi Dave, I had always suspected that it was the case that the SU staff touched up the Roundel paint, especially as it began to look ragged and worn. Just looking at some of the more worn airframes, with what appers to be "Fresh Roundels", I knew that something was happening, but nothing to substaniate it. Thankyou for confirming what I have been thinking  I agree that our SU staff took great pride in our aircraft, given the primitive conditions they had to work and manitain these aircraft in, they were/are "Legends" in my book. It drives me nuts when modellers paint renditions of our aircraft to look like the "least maintained Vagabonds" of the Pacific area. Thanks/regards Alan |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 4, 2015 15:49:40 GMT 12
Admittedly some of the Corsairs did get to look pretty rough but I agree some modellers do take it a bit far.
However I really like what is being done with this model in this thread. Great skills.
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Post by artro219 on Aug 8, 2015 16:30:15 GMT 12
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Post by davidd on Aug 9, 2015 12:22:25 GMT 12
Just my ten cents worth, but maintaining complex aircraft under operational conditions in the tropics was a big job, and so far as I can see, maintaining a smart appearance was nowhere near the top priority for the engineer officer; a good state of operational serviceability always occupied that niche. Even in New Zealand, appearance always seemed to come a poor third, although staff officers from Wellington were prone to concluding that a scruffy aircraft was probably a poorly serviced aircraft. I am not aware that a shortage of paint and other finishing materials was ever an issue, but a lack of application equipment and technical knowledge probably was. It may come as a surprise to some, but there was NO trade of aircraft finisher in the RNZAF until about 1949, although the trade of fabric worker covered the skills of doping and finishing, something which the Corsair required. This is not to say that there was nobody capable of undertaking aircraft refinishing in the wartime air force, but from what I have read and heard about, the person who operated the spray guns were merely Aircraftman GD (General Duties), or in other words possessing no certified technical skills at all, although some may have had pre-war experience in the trade. However when the RNZAF got very concerned about the standard of aircraft finishing in mid 1943, commenting on the ease with which fresh coats of paint seemed to be stripping off the leading edges of Hudsons in particular, a Mr D J Fraser from Balm Paints was sent along to inspect this stripping problem and give recommendations to improve the adhesion. However laboratory tests failed to indicate any problem with the formulations of the paint itself, and suspicion fell on the actual application and procedures. Eventually another expert from BALM Paints (NZ) Ltd (Mr. R C Gibbons, believed to be their chief chemist), was invited to inspect the RNZAF facilities at Rukuhia in November of that year to supervise some trials on a new synthetic camouflage finish, as well as to provide more specific recommendations on improving the finishing of aircraft at the depot.
This visit included setting up some durability trails involving an SBD Dauntless and a Hudson, which after proper cleaning and preparation, were primed, than sprayed in camouflage colours. However the most important observations made by Mr Gibbons centred on many of the poor procedures used by the RNZAF spray-painters, and the obsoleteness and general unsuitability of their equipment, along with observations that fresh coats were often sprayed on over dirt and oily surfaces on the undersides of aircraft, where it was difficult to gain a good spraying position. He also provided a detailed list of the deficiencies of many (actually most!) RNZAF procedures, starting with the poor preparation of aircraft for painting, no definite procedure for cleaning, use of incorrect grades of abrasive paper (mineral turps used in conjunction with 240 grade was his recommendation), that all spraying equipment should be maintained in clean condition, and to be cleaned as soon as possible after use, and also noted that the spray guns in use at Rukuhia at the time, although used as pressure operated, were in fact suction-type guns; he recommended a proper pressure set up which would give greater ease of application, a superior job and great economies in material. The air supply was criticised as being far too high a pressure for painting (105 - 120 pounds PSI), and this from an airline which often contained oil and water. Although an air transformer was available, it was not mobile, so on most jobs it could not be used, and the operator had to go without and had no way of regulating his pressure (or even know the pressure), and the degree of thinning was almost impossible to estimate. It was also noted that there seemed to be no standardised drying period between successive coats. Another major problem was that the spray painters were expected to continue their duties in spite of other tradesmen also working on the aircraft at the same time, which must have caused extreme irritation and discomfort to all concerned.
The chemist was apparently unaware that the spray painters were not tradesman as such, but they were probably a fairly rare breed at that time in the RNZAF, and in industry as well; quite possible that there was little training given even in industry, let alone much promulgation of the chemistry of the paint and the dangers to operators. My guess is that most simply learned on the job, and only improved by self-criticism, or criticism from others if they were not very observant. They probably had to make-do with the equipment provided, and do their best, and this lack of proper training (and apparently very little supervision, technically speaking) seems to have plagued the RNZAF for the entire wartime period, although the standard probably improved gradually with time, despite the general lack of a proper training system.
It is also notable that the RNZAF units in the forward area were most reluctant to undertake major painting jobs if they could avoid it, and always seemed to request that any overall changes as well as special theatre markings be applied in New Zealand if that were possible, such as the diagonal white bands and later the white tails on Kittyhawks. Changes to roundels and fin-flashes also came into this category, although many of these in the first instance had to be applied in the forward area because the aircraft were already there when the orders were handed down. Examples of this include all the Corsairs assembled at Espiritu Santo and Los Negros, and the SBD Dauntlesses taken over at Espiritu Santo for 25 Sqdn; all the NZ serial numbers as well as "repeat" numbers on cowlings and vertical tail surfaces on these latter aircraft also had to be applied in theatre. For the Catalinas, all major repaints seem to have been undertaken at Lauthala Bay in Fiji, and few if any Kittyhawks seemed to have received complete repaints, although many of the earlier Hudsons in the forward area must have had the new blue grey camouflage colour applied over the original dark earth colour. A small number of PV-1s in the forward area received complete repaints (probably at Bougainville), and similarly small numbers of Corsairs at various locations from late 1944 onwards; there also seems to have been a rash of repaints on certain Corsairs with Bougainville-based SUs in 1945, but not apparently at other bases.
Although the above has been assembled from various sources, including official where available, I think it can be seen that RNZAF aircraft in the operational areas were probably as rough as in any other air force operating under tropical conditions, and our lack of any trade dedicated to spray painting might explain why we seemed to have more than our fair share of paint stripping off our aircraft, particularly on those larger ones which had to fly on through bad weather conditions. I still recall Errol Brathwaite (a gunner with 3 Squadron in 1945) commenting on his feelings when he first saw models of RNZAF PV-1s with immaculate schemes and representing aircraft in the forward area: Well, the aircraft I flew in never looked THAT good, they often had chromate primer patches, stains, and were getting very faded (or words to that effect); he admitted that they probably looked OK when new, but even in NZ Venturas spent their entire lives outside (the fate of all larger aircraft), and they looked it.
I have gone on far longer than intended, but am hoping to convince the doubters that well maintained aircraft (in the operational sense) may never appear that flash after from six months to a year standing around outside in the tropical sun, and especially so if using crushed coral airstrips and taxiways.
David D
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Post by alanw on Aug 9, 2015 14:07:22 GMT 12
David D, I don't think that anyone doubts the fact that RNZAF F4U-1A /D Corsair painted in the USN Tri/Four Tone scheme were quite ravaged by the effects of climate/operational use, there are oodles of photos showing that fact. I have to agree with Dave H, that the Roundels were kept touched up by the SU, not only from a having "Pride in your country's markings" to a safety aspect that faded markings could result in one of your Allies taking pot shots at you from a distance. This certainly would be important in the likes of the P 40's the RNZAF flew, it was oft noted by RNZAF Pilots that the P 40 had a similar plane form (from a distance) to a "Certain Japanese" aircraft (possibly Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony). This photo of three RNZAF Corsairs with well faded colours show (to me) that the Roundels were well cared for. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/F4U-1_Corsairs_of_26_Squadron_RNZAF_in_flight_1945.jpegWhen talking about fading, some modellers seem to have this pervasive Myth that the RNZAF flew sloppily maintained aircraft with Bright Electric Blue Roundels. I read only just yeasterday some modeller using the "Sloppy" comment on a build of a RNZAF F4U-1A Corsair (new Tamiya) it's amazing what google translate brings up Modellers seem to forget also that the wings (upper) and tail planes painted in "Semi Gloss Sea Blue" would fade/weather differently to the "Non Specular Sea Blue" painted on the airframe uppers. The reason why the USN went Glossy Sea blue was its ability to stand up to weathering and fading, much better than Matt colours, especially in the Pacific theatre. If anything this photo of a USN VF 17 F4U-1A Corsair typifies (to me ) what a well worn RNZAF airframe would look like. The RNZAF operated from Green Island too. I have never seen a US/USMC F4U Corsair weathered like people weather an RNZAF Corsair, and they often shared the same airstrips/fields. Dave H has oft mentioned that RNZAF SU's used avgas soaked rags to clean off the coral dust from airframes, I do not doubt that their USN/USMC counterparts did the same. On a note about repainting, Pete Mossong mentioned on Hyperscale some months ago that some RNZAF F4U-1A Corsairs were repainted in Glossy Sea Blue over (to my understanding)the brand new Tri/Four Tone scheme they arrived in. Certainly NZ5307 in the build above was. In thinking about Yellow Zinc Chromate (YZC) showing through I don't doubt that, In fact a lot of modellers who model US built camouflaged US aircraft seem to forget that fact when liberally applying bare metal scrapes/scratches to leading edges etc. I would expect the Tri Tone colours to show first in this case before YZC on NZ5307 at least. My two cents worth  Regards Alan |
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Post by baz62 on Aug 9, 2015 15:30:46 GMT 12
Then again there is no way you can tell how old the paint is on this Corsair. Might only be a month old, I have certainly seen photos of both US and RNZAF aircraft very weathered. Anyway the modellers are doing a finish to what they think it may have looked like. If you don't like it feel free to do your own. |
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Post by alanw on Aug 9, 2015 15:55:04 GMT 12
Then again there is no way you can tell how old the paint is on this Corsair. Might only be a month old, I have certainly seen photos of both US and RNZAF aircraft very weathered. Anyway the modellers are doing a finish to what they think it may have looked like. If you don't like it feel free to do your own. Doubt its a month old, more than a few. Read my initil comments on modellers and modelling. I do have a some RNZAF model on the go, but I doubt I'll show them here, if some one can't make some honest observations....... |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 9, 2015 21:15:45 GMT 12
You're correct David that they created the Safety and Surface trade in 1949 by combining the Parachute Packer trade, the Safety Equipment Worker trade, Fabric Worker trade and creating the Aircraft Finisher element - combining them all into one awesome package, which no other Air Force in the world ever did. One of the first S&S Workers, ie he was on the first training course for that trade, was Bill Fitzharding-Jones, who I'm sure you'll know from the Museum. It's interesting what you say about the unskilled, poorly equipped and poorly trained nature of the people who painted the aeroplanes. The chap who first told me they repainted the roundels as often as possible was an Armourer. I later asked an Airframe Fitter and he agreed that was done by the SU troops too. Alan the coral dust was removed after flights using the gasoline hose on a tanker, hosed off. So a lot more gas used than just a soaked rag!! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 9, 2015 22:01:48 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 9, 2015 22:21:34 GMT 12
Check out the wear on the wing of this one being flown by No. 19 Squadron (From the collection of the late Graeme Ronayne of No. 19 Squadron RNZAF)  Note the wear pattern near the cockpit, a bit unusual (From the collection of the late Graeme Ronayne of No. 19 Squadron RNZAF)  When you look at a better version of this photo you can see clearly the evidence of the roundel on the port wing having had its paint touched up by hand with a brush (this photo from the collection of SU member Stuart Johnstone, via Anne Luther)  These two photos from Tony Crarer of No. 5 Servicing Unit Corsairs show just how worn some aircraft paint got, whilst the aerolanes were still perfectly serviceable  Look at the second one in the row, the paint looks rough as guts!  |
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Post by scrooge on Aug 9, 2015 22:27:19 GMT 12
Not surprised the paint faded if they hosed the aircraft with gasoline from a tanker.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 9, 2015 22:27:38 GMT 12
So my opinion is modellers can happily have lots of fun with an RNZAF paint job with layer upon layer of different coats and touch ups and stains and drizzles without having to expose too much metal, but virtually every Corsair had a different pattern, each in itself a work of art.
I wonder, would the dope used on the fabric parts for repairs have been the commonly seen pink dope the RNZAF used back then? That could add even more colour and character to a model!
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Post by baz62 on Aug 9, 2015 22:59:41 GMT 12
Yep that's pretty much what I've seen, check out the star showing through the roundel! Obviously petrol was cheap.............free!  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 10, 2015 1:04:09 GMT 12
There must have been quite a steady supply of tankers crossing the Pacific from the USA just to keep 'em flying.
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