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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 4, 2015 1:55:33 GMT 12
I was just pondering, had the atomic bombs not existed, not worked or not been used, it was planned for an Allied invasion of Japan around October 1945 or so. And one of the key elements of the Allied force was to be RAF Bomber Command's "Tiger Force". No. 75 (NZ) Squadron was part of Tiger Force, and its Lancasters, or possibly by the time they reached Okinawa, Lincolns, would have been flying long distance operations, using air-to-air refuelling, and bombing the crap out of Japanese defences and industrial cities.
Tiger Force aircraft were to be painted in white upper and black lower surfaces.
Now, back in New Zealand the Corsair squadrons were all preparing too to convert to the P-51D Mustangs and their roles were going to be to provide long range bomber escort to Japan and do some ground and/or anti shipping strikes while over the enemy country with their rockets.
It would be very interesting to think that the RNZAF Fighter Wing Mustangs may well have been seen escorting the Lancasters or Lincolns of No. 75 (NZ) Squadron. I think this would make the subject of a superb what-if artwork. Black and white Lancasters over the blue sea and Japanese coastline with glinting silver Mustangs with RNZAF Pacific roundels and fin flashes as close escort. Maybe the P-51's could be wearing the No. 23 (Ghosts) Squadron logo, or No. 22 (Katipo) Squadron spider...
What do you reckon?
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Post by davidd on Aug 4, 2015 9:55:47 GMT 12
Sorry to throw a certain amount of doubt into the mix, but I have a feeling that the RNZAF P-51 Wing (3 or 4 squadrons?) was to be sent to Borneo or somewhere in that theatre to operate from recaptured BRITSH territory only (with primary role to be ground attack), and were certainly never envisaged as being based on Okinawa or the like for escort duties. In fact the only Commonwealth fighters intended for use with Tiger Force were to be Mosquitos (from off the top of my head) - this of course was the role for which the Hornet had been designed, but this type was as yet "immature". The Americans were most reluctant to permit ANY British Commonwealth air forces to be involved in the attacks on Japan (apart from the Naval aircraft with BPF which were grudgingly accepted), and also resented having to provide airfields for Tiger Force bombers. The Americans also vetoed ANY involvement of Soviet Russian forces in the occupation of Japan (which certainly simplified post-occupation governance of the country! Otherwise it would have ended up like occupied Germany, although Soviet Russia certainly had just shattered the biggest Japanese field army in the few days it had been involved in the Pacific war, thus arguably having won the right to be involved in the occupation.) Incidentally the Lincoln was having so many problems in 1945 that its participation in Tiger Force was much delayed too. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 4, 2015 13:03:29 GMT 12
Thanks David. You're right about the P-51D's heading to Borneo, I had heard that before but had forgotten it. I have also heard a few Corsair pilots say they were told they would convert to Mustangs for the invasion of Japan but that might have been scuttlebutt as so often was the case back then.
Why were the Americans so against Tiger Force joining the fight? I can certainly understand the desire to keep the Russians out, but the British, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders that would have made up Tiger Force were solid Allies and would have contributed strongly to the fight.
I heard an interesting take from a J Force veteran on the postwar occupation forces in Japan, the Allies were not there to quell any Japanese resistance because overall there was pretty much none, they accepted their fate and were spent. They were actually there to stop the Russians trying to move in. So J Force was firmly part of the Cold War apparently.
Would the Mossies have had to air-to-air refuel too? I guess that is likely.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 4, 2015 13:04:32 GMT 12
I guess if the war had continued for a long time some of our Mosquito squadrons may have reformed and moved to the Pacific and joined in too?
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Post by isc on Aug 4, 2015 20:52:56 GMT 12
I suppose the American reluctance to allow British aircraft in would be similar to their reluctance to allow the RNZAF Sunderlands to fly around some areas, the fear that they were surveying routes for civilian airlines after the war. I think the Americans at the time wanted to win the war. A bit over simplified I suppose. isc
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Post by suthg on Aug 6, 2015 12:37:32 GMT 12
At the end of my Uncle Ian Sutherland's flying career (36 sorties over Europe in a Lancaster MkIII) - about late April 1945 (last log book entry - March Summary, 10 April 45); he was offered a new career flying Lincolns in the Pacific Arena. He turned this down and as one of only two sons, he preferred to head back to farming in the Wairarapa.
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Post by davidd on Aug 6, 2015 18:19:52 GMT 12
Have just re-read a copy of Bruce Robertson's article "Tiger Force" published in Air Pictorial way back in October 1974. Apparently original plan (approx. Oct 1944?) was for this force to comprise three bomber groups (each with 12 squadrons of 16 Lancasters) and six squadrons of Mosquitos as escorts, manned and serviced by some 70,000 personnel. At this stage the Americans officially welcomed British participation, "but pointed out that numbers, dates and availability of bases must await development of the situation in the Pacific." In about February 1945, the British pared back the force, to two groups of ten squadrons each, with 20 Lancasters each, still with the six escort fighter squadrons, "and ancillary photographic reconnaissance, meteorological, air-sea rescue and transport units". Soon afterwards the RAF had to delete the Mosquito escort fighter element from Tiger Force "due to troubles with Mosquitos in tropical areas and from reports of reduced Japanese fighter activity". However the Path Finder Mosquito squadron, No. 627, with 30 B Mk. 35s, remained in the organisation, as did No. 544 Squadron with 30 PR (Met) 34s, for meteorological duties. Tiger Force was programmed to depart the UK (and Canada, in case of the RCAF Lancaster squadrons) in stages from September 1945, with full force to be assembled in Okinawa by mid-April 1946, but of course none of this ever happened. However it is probably just as well as the available accommodation problem raised its head by August 1945, with USAAF units wanting to occupy the bases provisionally earmarked months before for the Tiger Force squadrons on Okinawa. The 20th Air Force wanted to move its B-29s much closer to Japan than their present Marianas bases (no doubt to reduce crew fatigue as well to increase their bomb loads), and the 8th Air Force had by this time been withdrawn from the UK, and was re-equipping with new B-29s in the USA, preparing to move to Okinawa. The RAF realized that they would have to slot in with the 8th Air Force on the crowded airfields allocated, and the four maintenance units planned to help support the Lancasters had to be amalgamated into one air depot. The dropping of the two bombs shortly afterwards resulted in cancellation of the whole project before anyone left the UK.
One thing I have not been able to discover is the type of Mosquito fighter envisaged for the escort task, as so far as I know, no such model actually existed, only night fighters, and fighter bombers. Even a good read of the Sharp/Bowyer book "Mosquito" (from 1967 no less!) failed to produce any clues. Has anybody out there got any thoughts on this? (apart from suggestions featuring the DH Hornet!) David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 6, 2015 21:32:57 GMT 12
There were night bomber escort Mosquitoes who protected the Bomber Command stream. Not the same as the defensive night fighters like No. 488 (NZ) Squadron but actually heading out over Europe with the stream I believe. Maybe this is what they envisaged? I think the same squadrons did day escort duties too.
Also I recall talking with someone - and I cannot recall who now - who'd flown bombers but by 1945 he volunteered for the Tiger Force transport command, flying the C-47, and I am sure he said his squadron got as far as India before the war ended.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 6, 2015 21:37:02 GMT 12
Hmm, I'd better be more clear there. They were Mosquitoes who's duties were as fighter escorts, and the escorted the night bombers.
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Post by thelensofhistory on Aug 7, 2015 19:12:21 GMT 12
When planning the invasion of Japan, from what I have read over the years MacArthur suddenly took a liking to Australian troops. (MacArthur declined to use Diggers in the liberation of the Philippines.) So I think that any available RAF and RNZAF squadrons would have seen operational combat. Purely from memory 75 squadron was ear marked to destroy the bridges that linked the island's of Kyushu to Honshu.
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chasper
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 80
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Post by chasper on Aug 7, 2015 21:03:53 GMT 12
The Americans, both the army and navy, were determined that only American forces would finish the war against Japan, the British (and all other allied forces) had been relegated to clearing areas that were irrelevant to the outcome of the war. In the event that an invasion of Japan had been undertaken it was to have been a purely American exercise.
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Post by pjw4118 on Aug 28, 2015 17:49:47 GMT 12
I think that the Hornet was the answer to a long range fighter escort mark of Mosquito. It also fixed a few problems by having "handed" props . They served out in the FE but with the wars end were a bit of a orphan as jet power had taken over fighter defence duties but didn't yet have the legs for overseas duties. I have known a couple of ex Hornet pilots and they recall how great they were to fly but the service life was very short. And the Mosquitoes the RNZAF received were not really a bargain , some had served on D Day, and most ? never flew again after arriving in NZ. It was perhaps a move to stop us from taking up a much more suitable aircraft such as the Mitchell ; metal built , long range , reliable radials etc !!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 29, 2015 12:53:41 GMT 12
From what a couple of the 1950's veterans have told me, it's a bit of a myth that only 20 of the 80 RNZAF Mosquitoes saw service. They reckon that the aircraft rotated in and out of storage and at least half the fleet flew in New Zealand. I however have not done the research to back this up, you'd really need to look through No. 75 Squadron's ORB's to check serials of which ones flew with them in the five years or so they were operated.
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Post by davidd on Aug 30, 2015 12:26:28 GMT 12
As I was the one who made the guesstimate that only about 20 of the FB6s actually served with 75 Squadron postwar, I can tell you that I still stand by that approximate figure, although anyone is free to re-evaluate this statistic. I would also refute that there was much "rotation" of aircraft in and out of storage. I remember discussions with the late Noel Brown (who was in charge of the bulk of stored Mosquitos at Woodbourne - the contract for the care and servicing of these aircraft had been awarded to the NZ DH company in about 1948/49, and only about three staff members were employed full-time. I think they had about 50 aircraft in their charge, and they seemingly had very little to do - boredom was Noel's abiding memory of this period. However all aircraft had to have their engines pulled through by prop rotation at set intervals, and a few (possibly less than six - presume these were the official reserve aircraft for 75 Sqdn, and no doubt those just inside the hangar doors) were occasionally taken outside and run up on the tarmac. One of the DH employees frequently went "missing" whilst on duty, but his hiding place was eventually discovered - he was asleep in a carefully selected Mosquito! Another aspect of these stored Mosquitos was that it was later realized that they should have been stored in a flying attitude, as with the weight on the tailwheel for periods of several years, there were doubts as to the integrity of the aft fuselage. They should also have supported the mainwheels by use of axle supports to minimise tyre distortion, and it was later found that surface rust was forming on the reduction gears of the Merlins due to poor storage procedures, which were apparently only ever intended for comparatively short periods. A surprising number of the FB6s were destroyed in RNZAF service with 75 Sqdn, including two in hangar fires, and two fatal crashes as well as several spectacular landing accidents (including one which deliberately came in one engine for a flapless landing). The outcome of this last particular disaster was that the requirement for such an exercise was deleted as, so far as everybody in senior flying posts understood it, the alleged benefits of such training served no useful purpose and was in itself a demanding a very dangerous exercise. A somewhat similar fate befell a TEAL Electra at (Whenuapai?) about 15 years later, also on aircrew training duties. Regardless, there was a steady demand for "attrition" replacement aircraft during the Mosquito era. From memory, the established aircraft strength of 75 Sqdn during this period was about 9 FB6s and two T43s at any one time. There were several other RNZAF Mosquito accidents of course, mostly sustained during the ferry flights from the UK, but at least one involved on an internal ferry flight (from Ohakea to Taieri) was written off - HR339 at Wigram in April 1948. Most of the dual control trainers flown in from Australia were little utilised apart from two of the T43s, with many of the others being condemned after very little service due to deteriorating airframes brought about by two much time standing out on the open prior to the RNZAF receiving them; for instance NZ2301 was (I think) written off within a matter of a few months at Ohakea. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 30, 2015 13:32:12 GMT 12
Thanks David, that makes it a lot more clear. The rotation and replacement aircraft must have been only within those stored at Ohakea. I had not realised they only had as few as 11 operational aircraft on the squadron strength. They could have had six or seven squadrons of them based on those numbers.
Why did they continue to pay to store the aeroplanes so long? Why not sell some on or simply scrap them earlier I wonder. Were they expecting WWIII any time soon?
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Post by davidd on Aug 30, 2015 14:32:52 GMT 12
Dave, By 1948 the NZ Govt had decided to cut back on the ambitious scheme to have three Mosquito squadrons, and that one was really all that was required. The Mosquitos were only ever intended to be an interim solution to the NZ air defence problem until the early 1950s, with jets (British ones of course) being seen as the ideal, and those they did in fact order in 1950. Shortly after the Mosquito order was placed the Labour govt started a special fund to ultimately help finance the order for new aircraft for the post-war air force, although I am not certain how much this amounted to by 1950. I think the DH contract to care for the stored Mosquitos was cancelled in 1952 or thereabouts, and after that these aircraft were viewed as a waste of space, although it did take quite some time to get rid of them all (about 4 years in fact). The two Woodbourne hangars they occupied were wanted for the new post-war air force, although there was initially just enough space for the newly re-constituted No. 1 Repair Depot. Most of the Mosquitos were eventually all pushed outside to release the covered space for other activities. Needless to say, the market for used Mosquitos was not exactly going to bring in much money - in fact it is probably likely that the taxpayer would have viewed the whole Mosquito purchase as a bit of a financial disaster. Their original purchase price was not so high, but the ferrying project must have been a major distraction for the RNZAF from late 1946 to mid-1948, as well as costly, including loan of various RAF personnel to assist with ferrying, servicing, replenishing and catering en route etc. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 30, 2015 14:41:48 GMT 12
Still, if we think of the long game, the investment was well worth it because without those 80 Mosquitoes purchased back then we'd never have any in museums or collections here and there wouldn't have been any rebuild-to-fly industry for the type either.
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