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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 5, 2006 22:04:59 GMT 12
You've possibly heard of the Albatross C.VII fighter from WWI with an inline 200hp Benz engine which came to NZ as a war trophy in 1919. There's a nice photo of it in 'The History of New Zealand Aviation' by Ross Macpherson and Ross Ewing.
That book, and everything else I've read about the plane says Canterbury Museum didn't want it, and it was eventually burned.
I've read the museum's curators were anti-war and didn't want it back in their museum after it had been loaned out to the RNZAF for a Liberty Loan drive in 1943.
As i say, all the accounts at least state the plane was burned.
However, I have been studying the massive works (three huge volumes) by the late Ramon K. Trollope called 'Tiger Country: A Chronology of an Aerodrome and RNZAF Harewood" (1998).
In Volume 2 "Up In Arms" a piece by Victor Braggins, an engineer with No. 3 Repair Depot, tells what really happened to it. It seems it was not burned at all!
He's writing about early 1943 at Harewood and states: "About this time there was another patriotic parade in the city. The Canterbury Museum had a World War I Fokker bi-plane in storage and it was prepared out at Harewood for the display. Afterwards, it was learnt that the museum didn't want it back, so it lay around one of the hangars until. in desperation, Bob Fielder the boss said to get rid of it. That beautiful engine got smashed up; the fuselage, wings etc were smashed up too, and buried in a hole outside the southwest boundary, I think the runway goes over it now."
What a huge shame. All this time I blamed Canterbury Museum for destroying one of their most amazing artifacts, and whilst not entirely blameless, it was No. 3 RD, Harewood, who did it.
I wonder if a metal detector search may find anything today. The book even has a photo showing two perimeter dispersal hangars on the boundary fence which the hole was dug between, so it won't be too hard to pinpoint the spot. Probably little left of even the metal bits after 63 years. And it looked so good in the photo taken just months, maybe weeks before.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 5, 2006 22:41:54 GMT 12
It was displayed in the Square, Christchurch, 7Jul43. The destruction probably occured just after that event.
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Post by amitch on Jun 6, 2006 9:05:05 GMT 12
I wonder if a metal detector search may find anything today. The book even has a photo showing two perimeter dispersal hangars on the boundary fence which the hole was dug between, so it won't be too hard to pinpoint the spot. Probably little left of even the metal bits after 63 years. And it looked so good in the photo taken just months, maybe weeks before. After such a long time, there would be almost nothing left. Pity, but this is the way of the world. Equipment that has just become obsolete is discarded and it's not until later that we start to miss it and they become collectible. By then though it's often too late!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 6, 2006 11:00:01 GMT 12
By 1943 NZ was very airminded, especially the younger generations, and the aircraft would have been considered by many as a real treasure if they'd known about its existence, you just couldn't see these things everywhere, or in NZ, anywhere.
Sure there must have still been a lot of distaste about WWI about, but almost every town's RSA or council displayed a captured German artillery piece or something from WWI so why was this any different?
I think the main problem here is the museum had had it in storage, not on display. So most of the public were not aware of it. It hadn't been alowed to become an icon of Christchurch. It was only known about by a select few, and they were pascifists who despised it. So it was disposed of. Sad.
That's my take on the situation.
Peter, or anyone, have you more details on the aircraft's life in NZ? The Macpherson & Ewing book mentions it may have been in New Plymouth at some stage. Has any more evidence come to light since the book was written?
I wonder if Peter Jackson or any other replica builders might consider recreating this beautiful example of NZ history.
As for its destruction which must have been in 1943, I had read before that the RNZAF's Bf109E was also burned after being offered to the same museum and they turned it down. But I'm sure it lasted till later in the war, at least 1944 as it was at Nelson in the TTS as an Instructional Airframe. I had read something that intimated the Albatross and Bf109 were disposed of at the same time, but it seems not, unless the Albatross lasted for over a year in a Harewood hangar.
I wonder if anyone else took photos of the Albatross at that July 1943 display, it must have been quite a site to see.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 6, 2006 20:17:34 GMT 12
The Albatros C.VII was forced down near Salonika, Greece (date?), possibly by Australian crewed aircraft as, after a period on display at Cairo, it ended up in Australia. It arrived in NZ via Adelaide in November 1919 complete with a 200hp Benz motor and wearing the code '11A'. Given the date of arrival, no doubt it went to Sockburn/Wigram. I have no further notes of its movements in NZ (apart from the New Plymouth mention) - perhaps someone should check the NP newspapers for that year? I also ponder on the difficulties of transporting a large, fragile, non-airworthy wood and fabric structure by railway and waggon around the country at that time.
The Bf.109E-4 'Brown 5' was hit through oil system and f/l 1/4 mile northwest of Horton Park, UK, 27Nov40, pilot Wilheim Erdniss. It was dispatched to NZ in 1942 at NZ request to study the fuel injection system (seems a strange request?). After appearing in a War Bonds Drive, Wellington, relegated to TTS Nelson as INST111, to Chch Jul45 then offered to Christchurch Museum, offer declined. Cut up for scrap early 1948.
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Post by isc on Sept 1, 2018 22:09:33 GMT 12
There are(and were) a number of WW1 German guns around Otago, there used to be one (and remains of a machine gun) at the Shiel Hill War Memorial on top of the peninsular, not far from the radio aerials. Another at Portobello, that one is being held at the Otago Museum awaiting a decision on what to do with it. There is one at Naseby, just been done up, and another in Cromwell, it's been moved since I lived there , it used to be at the bottom of town , looking looking over the old bridge. There must have been dozens bought back to NZ.isc
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Post by davidd on Sept 2, 2018 10:12:33 GMT 12
Just a quick comment on the first message in this thread, the Albatross C.VII was not a fighter, it was a two-seater reconnaissance aircraft. If it had been a fighter it would have had a "D" prefix rather than a "C". Sorry, could not help myself! David D
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Post by errolmartyn on Jan 7, 2019 20:18:47 GMT 12
The latest issue of Cross & Cockade International’s splendid Quarterly Journal for Winter 2018 features Part 1 of an interesting and detailed article about BE12 operations in Macedonia – 'Jack of all Trades’ – by Mike Kelsey. Mike provides the following description of the action that led to the capture of Albatros C.VII C1302/16 which finally ended up in New Zealand: On 14 January [1917] Lt. Murlis Green and Lt F.G. Saunders, flying [BE12] 6601 and 6603 respectively, succeeded in cutting off an enemy two-seater and the German crew gave up the resulting combat and landed near 17 Squadron's aerodrome at Lahana. Their aircraft, Albatros CVII C1302/16, was captured undamaged. The crew were Ltn O.M.R. Graf von Schwerin (observer) and Uffz C. Bohnensick (Pilot), of FFA 66, who were taken prisoner. This machine was the cause of considerable excitement, and Lt General George Milne, the commander of the British Salonika Force (BSF), was flown up to inspect it by Lt Colonel Dawes. Later, Murlis Green flew it to Salonika, escorted by two BEs. The Albatros was virtually brand new and Count von Schwerin said it had only done about six flights. He also said it was the first of the type (the CVII) to be sent to Macedonia. Under interrogation the Count confirmed much of the information given earlier by crew captured on 4 January, including the improvement noticed lately in British machines. His interrogation report states: Enemy machines are now outpaced by our B.E.12, and this was the reason of prisoners capture. He did not notice the approach of our machines until too late, and was headed off whenever he tried to turn (a separate report adds that his machine gun failed to operate). Eventually when he saw one of our machines above and one below him he decided to land. Having done so he endeavoured to destroy his machine with a special destructive bomb carried by aviators for this purpose, but this failed to go off.
Errol
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Post by ZacYates on Jan 7, 2019 21:20:36 GMT 12
Enemy machines are now outpaced by our B.E.12 Even by the standards of the day, the idea of a BE.12 outpacing anything makes me smile!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 7, 2019 22:01:07 GMT 12
Fantastic update Errol, thanks!
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Post by errolmartyn on Jan 7, 2019 22:42:32 GMT 12
Enemy machines are now outpaced by our B.E.12 Even by the standards of the day, the idea of a BE.12 outpacing anything makes me smile! Maybe so on the Western Front but things were somewhat different in the Balkans. Murlis Green Actually achieved Acedom on the BE.12 - 3 destroyed, two captured and 1 out of control! Cheers, Errol
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Post by ZacYates on Jan 8, 2019 14:20:45 GMT 12
Wow! What a story! That/s very cool.
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