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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 4, 2015 16:44:25 GMT 12
Nigel Berry is asking on Facebook about this airman who's identity card he found. Does anyone have any info on him and his career? He seems to have risen rapidly in rank.
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 4, 2015 17:58:50 GMT 12
His date of birth is recorded as 21.4.24 in RNZAF Routine Orders listing his enlistment.
NZ Birth Deaths and Marriages records online list the death of a Ronald McDonald Wilson as occurring in 1989 but give his date of birth as 21/4/1922.
There is a painter by name of Ronald MacDonald Wilson residing at Te Atatu in the 1981 electoral rolls.
Errol
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Post by isc on Oct 4, 2015 20:43:11 GMT 12
This must have been a new Id card as it's stamped 9 Sept 1943, although he may not have had one during basic training. isc
Were 60, 216, 70 squadrons training? 16 was a fighter sqd
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Post by noooby on Oct 6, 2015 7:23:03 GMT 12
Why does he need permission to wear the NZ badge?
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Post by davidd on Oct 6, 2015 9:56:16 GMT 12
The wearing of the NZ Identification badge came about fairly early in WW2 (ADO N222/40 of 21/8/40), although the badges themselves were not expected to be available for another 4 weeks. Prior to this the only way of identifying RNZAF personnel serving with or alongside RAF units was by reference to their uniform buttons (which had the letters N and Z placed inconspicuously with the crown and eagle), and the airman's cap badge also contained the letters "NZ" intertwined with the RAF element. The officer (and warrant officer) cap badges were identical to those of their counterparts in the RAF, so were of no use for national identification at all. In fact the idea for identification badges was stimulated and sanctioned by Air Ministry as a useful aid in nationality identification for various purposes, not only for personnel of British Dominion services but also for nationals of what were known as friendly foreigners, and particularly those countries overrun by the Nazi hordes. The adoption of such identification badges also happened to give force to the Empire Air Training Scheme promise (of December 1939) to provide some means of identifying Dominion members of that scheme from "normal" members of the RAF, in which service large numbers of the graduates of this scheme would serve. However the national i/d badges were later also worn by Commonwealth citizens or foreigners who had enlisted in the RAF directly, and were not actually members of their home air forces. However, so far as the RNZAF was concerned, these badges were ONLY to be worn by the individual concerned when he was serving permanently overseas with other than those of his own service, and were required to be removed on return to NZ - this requirement also covered those trainees sent to Canada who were also issued with i/d badges just prior to departure. Members of the RNZAF in NZ, for instance, as with members of RAAF and RCAF, never wore such identification badges in their home country, and this also was the case when RNZAF members were sent to the Pacific bases, including Fiji, Tonga, Norfolk Island, Funafuti, the New Hebrides, British Solomon Islands, etc, even when serving alongside American units. Personnel on temporary service overseas, such as draft conducting officers, and airmen or officers on short cases in Australia for instance, were also issued I/d badge for the duration of this duty only, and badges were to be removed promptly on return.
However resentments arose in July 1943 when NZ soldiers returned to NZ on furlough from the Middle East, and were permitted to wear their black and white national i/d badges (often in the form of slip-on slides which were carried on their shoulder straps), whereas of course RNZAF personnel returning from the UK or Pacific service were not given this dispensation. As with the RNZAF, the Army I/d badges were never intended to be worn on return to NZ, as it was presumed that New Zealanders would recognize other New Zealanders in their own homeland! This lead to some cases of the 2nd NZEF furlough men being feted throughout New Zealand as they wended their way home from Auckland to their provincial home towns by NZ Railways in special trains, with special welcomes at every little station, with hot tea and buttered scones being offered. However should a member of the RNZAF, also returning home on leave following a Pacific tour, foolishly approach the tempting scones and steaming tea in the mistaken belief that these were being provided for returning servicemen generally, were rapidly disabused of this notion, it being was pointed out that only Army men with their distinctive black and white nationality badges, were welcome, as they were RETURNED men from the war fronts of Europe, and the treats were NOT for any blue orchids who had never left New Zealand.
The resentment of RNZAF personnel towards this special privilege extended to the returned Army personnel, but denied by current RNZAF dress regulations, was quickly assuaged by the issue of ADO A220/43 of 28/7/43, which extended this privilege to include airman and officers of the RNZAF. However this had to be applied for individually by the member concerned (and approved by his commanding officer), something which the Army personnel apparently were not required to do. The Government must have been convinced of the correctness of such equal recognition by appeals for fairness from those airmen who had served in the earlier campaigns in the Solomons as well as returned men from the European and Mediterranean theatres, as well as those in Singapore and the Netherlands East Indies. However this was considered an "optional" privilege, and it was not an offence under contemporary dress regulations to NOT wear I/d badges if you were eligible. Of course the oddest part of this system was that the applying officer or airman could not qualify to wear the identification badge until AFTER he had completed a qualifying period of overseas service, although he could continue to wear it in New Zealand as well as overseas after that. Thus it could not fulfil any useful identification function until the second tour, although I guess this was not a huge handicap operationally speaking, as RNZAF personnel serving in the Pacific did not look much like American serviceman in that same theatre, and if there was any doubt, the first verbal exchange would confirm that they were indeed from entirely different countries.
The privilege of wearing New Zealand identification badges (or "shoulder patches" as they were often referred to colloquially in WW2 documentation) was withdrawn by order of ADO N215/48 of 9/11/48, effective from 31/12/48. However what might be termed a national identification badge was resurrected in 1968, although this badge (by now reading "Royal New Zealand Air Force") had come to be simply an integral part of the normal service dress uniform, in blue grey and khaki variants and did not denote anything more than that.
David D
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Post by davidd on Oct 6, 2015 11:12:05 GMT 12
Having just re-read the "granted permission" section of this man's identity card, I am at a loss to explain why this privilege was extended in him in 1944 whilst apparently serving attached to the RAF, as he would have been wearing these badges when he departed NZ in 1942. However I can find no mention of this man actually departing NZ in Errol's FYT Vol 3, and the purple stamped date on the card (9 Sept 1943) tends to strongly suggest he was in New Zealand at this time, at Whenuapai.
Therefore he did NOT serve overseas with RNZAF, which means that the 60 Squadron refers to No. 60 (Radar) Squadron which had its HQ's at Auckland, and 216 Squadron in New Zealand was an Aerodrome Defence Squadron based at Taieri from July 1942! However the identity card claims he was with 60 Squadron at this time, at the other end of the country. Also being on strength of an ADU would normally indicate he was possibly an aircrew trainee at this time, but it may be more likely that he was an instructor going by his rank of Sgt (something a trainee aircrew member would not be under normal circumstances). No. 705 Squadron is a complete mystery, as this sounds like a Fleet Air Arm Squadron, and so far as I know, there never was any such unit in the RNZAF at any time in its history.
No. 16 Squadron would have to be the fighter squadron, but I have no record of any officer by the name of V T or V J Mason in the RNZAF in WW2, let alone a squadron leader, and certainly nobody of this name, or similar, in 16 Squadron. And on this same theme I can find no officers by the name of F/O K M Ryder, or S/L G P Andrews, nor these men in any other rank. I have most of the Officer lists issued for the wartime RNZAF so it is highly unlikely that any or all of these men might have escaped my trawl.
Another detail I am not happy about is his elevation from Sgt to W/O in less than a year - I have never seen anybody else promoted directly from one to the other without being a flight sergeant in the interval, and the normal time period taken to reach W/O from initial Sgt rank would be two years during WW2.
More alarming than all the above, I can find no trace of a Pilot Officer Ronald McDonald Wilson in the wartime RNZAF, and this is most unusual - if he were indeed commissioned he would show up, wherever he happened to be in the world, in the RNZAF officer lists over this period. I have these list for April and August 1944, January and April 1945 - no sign of him at all.
The only thing that really rings true is that F/L J D McMillan WAS a real person, in the A&SD Branch, and he was CO of 60 Squadron in 1944 (the Personnel Occurrence Report of this unit, POR 174/44, is quoted as the authority for the issue of the identification badge). Flight Lieutenant John Donald McMillan was Officer Commanding No. 61 (Radar) Squadron (Rongotai) from 30/6 to 17/11/43, then ditto for No. 60 Squadron (Whenuapai) 18/11/43 to 9/8/44. It seems as though most information which appears in the "Changes of rank or station" section are highly suspect, certainly that part entered with red ink. However the document itself and all the other information would appear to be genuine. I would also float the theory that R McD Wilson had prior overseas operational service with the Army or Navy, which is why he was granted permission to wear the NZ identification badge. Special provision for granting such permission under these circumstances is included in wartime RNZAF Regulations, see ADO A.19/44 of 19/1/44.
I will have to carry out further investigations on this one.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 6, 2015 11:40:46 GMT 12
Very strange. I note that McMillan seems to have dated his statement as 1944, and the person who's written in red (note all three red entries seem to be the same handwriting) has changed it to 1942.
No. 705 Naval Air Squadron was disbanded in 1940 and did not re-establish till 1945, so it's not a Fleet Air Arm squadron.
It's all very odd indeed.
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 6, 2015 12:18:11 GMT 12
I can confirm that, apart from McMillan, none of those named in David's post were ever commissioned members of the RNZAF during WWII, nor in fact even members of that service at all.
Errol
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flymac
Pilot Officer
Posts: 45
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Post by flymac on Oct 6, 2015 14:21:23 GMT 12
Were there any UK personnel send to work with the RNZAF on the use of radar? I doubt if NZ had any experienced radar operators in 1939 and by 1942 would have welcomed RAF help.
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Post by htbrst on Oct 6, 2015 14:30:44 GMT 12
Were there any UK personnel send to work with the RNZAF on the use of radar? I doubt if NZ had any experienced radar operators in 1939 and by 1942 would have welcomed RAF help. I know they (almost) went the other way - one of my relations was heading from NZ to the UK to work on radar development - only to have there ship sunk off NZ by a German Raider - thus ended up in Germany instead
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 6, 2015 14:57:44 GMT 12
Were there any UK personnel send to work with the RNZAF on the use of radar? I doubt if NZ had any experienced radar operators in 1939 and by 1942 would have welcomed RAF help. As recorded in the third volume of my For Your Tomorrow trilogy, over 300 radio mechanics, radar mechanics and a radar officer were sent from New Zealand to to the RAF during the war for radar duties, about two thirds of them prior to 1942. Their names are listed in the volume's 'Airmen sailing to war, 1937-1945' appendix. Errol
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Post by isc on Oct 6, 2015 20:32:50 GMT 12
Dad was one of the Radar mechanics who went to the UK, left Wigram as AC2, on his pass book, under changes of rank no entries The number beside the photo is 657, and the date stamp is Wigram Aerodrome 19 Feb 1942. All info fill in in block capitals, except Build. Dad was 5' 5 1/2", and listed as slight, I note that Wilson was 5' 3 1/2" and medium. The number next to his photo is A 48, date 9 Sept 1943. I'm not too sure, but there almost seems to be more room under the last line on the RH page. On arrival in the UK Dad became LAC. trade RDF/M(G0(1). Just had alook in Mum's service release book, as a WAAF Corporal her daily rate of pay was 5 shillings. isc
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Post by angelsonefive on Oct 10, 2015 0:33:50 GMT 12
Ronald McD Wilson is buried in Waikumete Cemetery. Date of death 5/10/1989. Age 67 years.
The inscription on the headstone confirms 4213466 and RNZAF service 1939-1945.
His rank is given as " L.A.C. ".
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Post by baronbeeza on Oct 10, 2015 9:13:08 GMT 12
It is not the type of ID card I am familiar with but I did see any number of personnel records of decades later. I would have thought that once an ID card has been amended or defaced it is no longer fit for purpose.
If someone presented that to me I would dismiss it immediately. The name on the signature and the card don't match to begin with. We then have a whole host of errors and inconsistencies. You could almost count them and the list is almost endless. I am not even sure the red is ink as opposed to biro, it hasn't ran or stained like the other inks. Perhaps it was added at a much later date.
I would have worked out very quickly that the card looks genuine, was issued at Whenuapai on 9 Sept 43 and the airman was an AC at that time. If you use that as a starting point then it is obvious the card has been heavily 'modified'. The date of birth doesn't match the hair colour (different hand, different pen, and in a different style of print). I am also surprised to see the name written as opposed to printed but I guess it is possible these were being raised quickly and often.
I doubt even a pub bouncer would be accepting that one...
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Post by isc on Oct 10, 2015 19:10:34 GMT 12
On dads ID card under Changes of rank or station there is nothing, AC1 is the bottom so that's what you are, so your first change would be AC2. Dad changed stations from Harewood to Wigram, but that was under training, so no ID card, not too long after finishing training he was posted to UK, so RAF ID card issued as LAC, which he stayed at until discharged, so nothing in the change of rank or station column. isc
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 10, 2015 19:36:29 GMT 12
We've confirmed that the card has definitely got some bogus added info on it. Whether it was added by Ronald Wilson or someone else we'll never know I guess. But rest assured he was an LAC when he left the RNZAF in 1945. All the appropriate details have been passed to the current owner of the card.
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Post by emron on Oct 11, 2015 17:13:07 GMT 12
I was intrigued to follow this thread because apart from the McDonald bit we are namesakes! I've only just learnt about him here but we're unrelated AFAIK. I think those alterations were done by someone for amusement rather than any purpose of deceit, but are a little disrespectful if not done with his knowledge and they've spoilt the card's value as a memento. As Dave says we'll probably never get any further answer to that mystery.
Coincidently my Dad was a Radar Mech too. But he was older than Ronald and enlisted in 1940. I believe he may have attended the very first course at Hobsonville because airborne radar was new at that time, top secret and not yet introduced with the RNZAF. He and his mates promptly shipped off to the UK for further training, following which in early 1941 he was attached to RAF 209 Squadron. They were operating with Catalinas using early ASV radar. Initially stationed at Lough Erne, Northern Ireland he moved with the squadron to Reykjavik, Iceland later in the year and then returned to Pembroke Dock, Wales. Mid 1942 they were deployed to East Africa and Dad completed the remainder of his overseas service at Kisumu, Lake Victoria, Kenya where there was a mix of Catalinas and Sunderlands in use.
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Post by lyndasbubas on Sept 7, 2017 21:58:18 GMT 12
Ronald McD Wilson is buried in Waikumete Cemetery. Date of death 5/10/1989. Age 67 years. The inscription on the headstone confirms 4213466 and RNZAF service 1939-1945. His rank is given as " L.A.C. ".
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Post by lyndasbubas on Sept 7, 2017 22:04:37 GMT 12
Ronald McD Wilson is buried in Waikumete Cemetery. Date of death 5/10/1989. Age 67 years. The inscription on the headstone confirms 4213466 and RNZAF service 1939-1945. His rank is given as " L.A.C. ".
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Post by lyndasbubas on Sept 7, 2017 22:07:41 GMT 12
I'm sure this is my uncle,is there any photos or anymore information on Ronald please
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