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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 28, 2016 13:20:26 GMT 12
I am not sure of the facts here but this may be unfair Shorty. From what I have been told he runs a pretty good museum based around the shipwrecks he's found in Northland. He has supposedly located loads of forgotten shipwrecks. As for some of his theories, well there's good evidence outside of what he has suggested that other peoples were in New Zealand before the Maori arrived here, this is these days largely hushed up.
There's also evidence and hushed up stories of enemy subs operating around our shores, particularly Northland. I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and wait and see when it comes to the Mustang.
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Post by ZacYates on Mar 28, 2016 14:01:11 GMT 12
The idea of raising a long-missing Mustang is very exciting to me! I'll be following with much interest - surely it will be the biggest aviation archaeology find in NZ for some time?
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Post by shorty on Mar 28, 2016 14:06:07 GMT 12
Just as the U-Boat was the most amazing maritime discovery. Wonder if he has found MH 370 yet?
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Post by pepe on Mar 28, 2016 15:21:49 GMT 12
I am not sure of the facts here but this may be unfair Shorty. From what I have been told he runs a pretty good museum based around the shipwrecks he's found in Northland. He has supposedly located loads of forgotten shipwrecks. As for some of his theories, well there's good evidence outside of what he has suggested that other peoples were in New Zealand before the Maori arrived here, this is these days largely hushed up. There's also evidence and hushed up stories of enemy subs operating around our shores, particularly Northland. I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and wait and see when it comes to the Mustang. Mr Hilliam is no longer involved in an official capacity at the Dargaville Museum. His past achievements in the field of shipwreck discovery are of definite merit. Unfortunately, more recently, he has seemed to discover more controversy than results. We won't go into the pre Maori civilisation debate as this thread is not the place, but there is a reason they don't appear in the history books..... archaeopedia.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alternative_Archaeology
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Post by The Red Baron on Mar 28, 2016 15:42:00 GMT 12
It will certianally be interesting to see if theres anything under the river. Hard to beleive that a Mustang could crash into the river without anyone seeing it.Even in 1955 the Dargaville area was reasonably well populated,its also very flat countryside around there. If the plane was cruising at 300 mph and touched the water there would have been a bang you would hear for miles and a debris feild 100's of metres long.
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Post by baronbeeza on Mar 28, 2016 17:58:51 GMT 12
Oh, you mean lots of noise, followed by a lot more noise, and then..... no more noise.
Well that would figure. I guess the plane spotters here would notice but do you think the average Joe would ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 28, 2016 18:14:48 GMT 12
Not really if the Auckland Squadron Mustangs flew over that way often, it would be commonplace.
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Post by The Red Baron on Mar 28, 2016 18:21:55 GMT 12
I'm sure a Mustang hitting the ground at 300 mph would distract you from your kumara picking.
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Post by oj on Mar 28, 2016 21:31:31 GMT 12
Thanks Shorty, you must be a chess player ready to thwart every move ..... Never mind. I have no interest in any submarine story which everyone seems so keen to harp on about. Let's just see what evolves in April regarding the Mustang.
By the way, Sir, I did not list my my member signature as an LAME until quite recently, and not for any pretentious reason. I have just found it hard over the years to derive among our forum members just who are engineers, pilots, bean-counters or whatever. So, not being a secretive person I just thought it might help in others understanding my points of view on various topics and with a view to encouraging some more technical content in discussions.
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 12, 2016 14:47:02 GMT 12
I now have a copy of the official report on the loss of NZ2425, and thought some details of the items of debris found after the crash might be of interest.
In no particular order :
1. One piece of riveted aluminium, jagged and irregular in shape but about 15 inches by 8 inches overall, with zinc chromate paint on one surface, and with evidence of roundel red paint on the rivets. This item had a piece of wood attached, and was marked " AD 24 S - T - AN - A13A F - T AL F - T A ". It was identified as an internal brace in the P-51 fuselage near the fuselage fuel tank, which was located just aft of the cockpit.
2. Several pieces of balsa wood, painted black on one surface. One of these items bore the marking " 109-48221-19 " and these parts were used for packing around the fuselage tank.
3. Several scraps of a synthetic fibre material, called Rayon, used to protect the fuselage tank from damage by chafing.
4. One Mustang seat back pad. This was marked " NZM24 ", denoting NZ Mustang modification no. 24. This mod., which involved removing some of the kapok from one end of the pad, was found embodied. There was no doubt that this item was from NZ2425 as an inventory of modified seat back pads held by Mustang Squadrons was carried out and only one could not be accounted for. The pad was found by Police at Glinks Gully, on the sea coast near Dargaville.
5. An unspecified part of a pilot's oxygen mask. This was identified as being from a small size mask, and such a mask was on record as being issued to Plt Off. French. Item found on the beach three miles north of Glinks Gully.
6. A buoyancy pad as used in the Mae West inflatable life jackets issued to RNZAF aircrew. This item bore the Air Ministry Crown emblem and was marked with the no. 194. It was found by Mr Heta Barnes when fishing at a point 1/2 mi. south of Hardings Beach, near Dargaville, on the 24th of March. The Court of Inquiry heard expert testimony that the pad, while waterlogged, had not been in the water more than seven days.
7. A 4-inch-long section of aluminium alloy extrusion with a fragment of wood jammed in one end. This was identified as being part of a 76-inch-long component that ran out from the starboard wing root along the area above the undercarriage bay. I hope this is of interest.
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 12, 2016 15:36:01 GMT 12
Glinks Gully is about 40km (25m) North of the entrance to Kaipara Harbour. By the way Muriwai is about 45km South of the entrance.
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Post by delticman on Apr 12, 2016 15:38:43 GMT 12
Glinks Gully is about 40km (25m) North of the entrance to Kaipara Harbour. By the way Muriwai is about 45km South of the entrance. I was thinking about an outgoing tide from the Kaipara, that must have pushed any wreckage quite a distance out to sea.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 12, 2016 20:10:43 GMT 12
According to what Warwick Jones said at the recent RAeS meeting and what he's told me privately, they have the aircraft wreckage clearly visible on their scanner, they know where it is but it's buried under silt and he efforts this coming weekend is to use a jet blaster to remove the silt and bring up the wreckage. He said they already have part of the tail or some piece. And he said a wing is detached in the scan.
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Post by ZacYates on Apr 13, 2016 10:12:44 GMT 12
Thanks for sharing Dave, that's exciting stuff to hear.
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Post by Bruce on Apr 13, 2016 11:22:39 GMT 12
The wreckage distribution on the west coast beaches in entirely in line with the supposed wreck location. My Family were original settlers in the Kaipara area and have been involved in shipping in that area for generations. The tides are legendary as the harbour is one of the largest by volume in the country, and all that water sucks out through a narrow opening with significant force. All the recovered items were very lightweight so could easily have been dragged out of the harbour and redeposited on the beaches. Despite the controversy around Noel Hilliams theories, he is a very experienced and successful wreck hunter, Having been taught by the great Kelly Tarlton. Its going to be interesting to see the results!
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 14, 2016 14:26:32 GMT 12
Some more from Record No. 25/2/2800.
At about 1500 hours on Tuesday the 22nd of March, two days after the disappearance of NZ2425, Sunderland NZ4119 of 6 Sqdn captained by Flt Lt D. F. Clarke reported the sighting of several patches of discoloured water in the sea near the western boundary of the Whenuapai Flying Training Area.
One of these patches appeared to be oil, and the others were described as milky in appearance. There was unidentified flotsam in the area as well. The position of the patches was reported to be on a bearing of 190 degrees (T) and at a distance of 18 n.m. from Kaipara Light, or, 3641S 17403E. The Sunderland remained in the vicinity for about 30 minutes before being forced to return to base for fuel. These patches of discoloured water were observed by all 9 POB.
Interestingly, there is a rough note included in the file. Hand written on plain paper, the page is unsigned and undated. I have endeavoured to reproduce it as accurately as I can :
36* 41' 174* 03' Sunderland sighted object under water
Dye marker patches just under surface
One patch appears to be oil
Various pieces flotsam roughly 6' in length
1556 Harvard going out only one fishing boat in area - sked 18.30 F/B trying to find him. s/w wind 5/10 CAVU
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 14, 2016 19:51:11 GMT 12
I just heard from Warwick that the recovery effort has been postponed and won't be happening this weekend due to problems with equipment not being available now.
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Post by ZacYates on Apr 15, 2016 12:02:51 GMT 12
Thanks for the update Dave.
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 17, 2016 20:15:42 GMT 12
Here is a timeline of the main events relating to the fateful flight of Mustang NZ2425 on Sunday 20th of March 1955:
1131M. Mustang NZ2425 radio c/s DAYDAWN NINETEEN takes off from RWY 13 ( old RWY, now taxiway ) at NZWP to carry out a 1-hour session of flying practice, consisting of low flying not below 250 feet in the Kaipara Low Flying Area, southern zone, and aerobatics to be conducted in the Local Flying Area. The Controller watches the Mustang make a normal take off and carry out a shallow climbing left turn to head in the direction of the Kaipara Low Flying Area.
1135M. TEAL DC-6 ZK-BGC takes off from NZWP bound for Sydney, making a RH circuit.
1139M. The DC-6 sets course over the radio range station on a Hdg of 263 degrees Mag.
1143M. The DC-6 crosses the coast outbound at 4,000 feet and maintaining 263 degrees Mag.
1145M (approx.) Witness Mr V.H. Judd, who is on the beach about 6 miles north of Muriwai village, sees a Mustang approaching from the east over the sand hills. He watches the plane make a series of low runs down the beach. Mr Judd also notices a 4-engine aircraft about " 1 to 2 " miles out from the coastline and heading northwest. He then sees the Mustang vacate the Low Flying Zone by making a climbing turn and heading in a northwesterly direction, giving the witness the impression that the fighter is following the airliner.
1150M (approx.) Mr Judd observes the two aircraft fading into the distance with the Mustang behind and much lower than the DC-6. Mustang NZ2425 is never seen again.
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Post by John L on Apr 18, 2016 16:34:55 GMT 12
The wreckage distribution on the west coast beaches in entirely in line with the supposed wreck location. My Family were original settlers in the Kaipara area and have been involved in shipping in that area for generations. Not a Stanaway descendant, perchance?
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