|
Post by Peter Lewis on Feb 1, 2007 22:39:29 GMT 12
What? Where? When? Some clues: Photos taken post-1967, as the price in the store window is dollars, not pounds. Taken in NZ, so presumably ex-RNZAF Has a Lockheed look about it.
|
|
|
Post by ARU on Feb 1, 2007 22:54:15 GMT 12
it may be a Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra, I think NAC might of used them
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 1, 2007 23:16:31 GMT 12
It's a Hudson, note the edge of the roundel on the second photo, and the camouflage pattern.
At first I thought it was one of the C-63 conversions, minus top turret but now I realise it has been cut through the rear fuselage just in front of the turret. There is a slight curve on top like it was a turreted model.
It wears wartime markings which is interesting for post-1967 survivor. It also has the code X on the door. This makes me conclude, as it's a single code, this is the aircraft's individual code letter.
It could be Mk V NZ2003 ZX-X of No. 1 OTU which did survive the war and went to the Dept of Agriculture at Rukuhia in 1948.
Other possibilities are SJ-X of No. 1 Sqn, JV-X of No. 3 Sqn, WH-X of No. 2 Sqn. Or YZ-X of No. 4 Sqn. I don't think No. 9 Sqn carried codes. I don't know which aircraft, if any, correspond to these code identities though.
I have heard that a Hudson or perhaps two used to sit beside the Asplins Garage (service station) at Rukuhia up till the late 1960's or early 1970's. I cannot place what became of that one/those two. I can only hope it/they are in a barn.
I don't think this is the Asplins' place though. Not certain but it looks too big a building.
I'll even stick my neck out and suggest it could possibly be the fuselage of the Hudson that was later donated by Mr K. Pennell of Kaiangaroa to the RNZAF Museum. It's about the right amount of remains from memory.
|
|
|
Post by mumbles on Feb 1, 2007 23:27:47 GMT 12
Looks like a Hudson to me. There is a gap along the top of the fuselage where the astrodome should be, and in the both shots there is what looks to be traces of a roundel at the extreme aft end of the fuselage. The 'X' looks to be painted on a door which is in the right place for a Hudson. The fuselage windows being below the level of the cockpit also say 'Hudson'.
No clue as to where, but the leafless trees in the background of the lower shot suggest it is winter. $15 for a wheel barrow tray is pretty cheap, that and the fact that the photos are in black and white make me think 70's sometime.
|
|
|
Post by mumbles on Feb 1, 2007 23:28:43 GMT 12
Damn, Dave beat me to it while I was composing..... ;D
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 1, 2007 23:32:26 GMT 12
I also updated my post and didn't see yours till i reposted it, as I made an error, it's not a C-63.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2007 0:34:51 GMT 12
I have been giving this a little more thought. The roundel looks to have the yellow outer ring, RAF style, as used on postwar camouflaged Hudsons in the RNZAF.
There are no white bars which were introduced to most Hudsons mid-war but removed from camo ones later. It's in camouflage, not bare-metal like most postwar Hudsons.
There were a handful of camouflaged Hudsons still after the war, most in storage but some with the Air Navigators School, Wigram. .
So of the postwar survivors we can eliminate looking at Charles Darby's RNZAF: The First Decade: NZ2016 - in bare metal SAR scheme NZ2031 - in bare metal Air Nav School scheme, coded F - now at Motat NZ2039 - in bare metal Air Nav School scheme, coded G NZ2063 - in bare metal SAR scheme NZ2087 - in camo similar but coded C with Air Navigation School
Having eliminated these above that were known to be bare metal after the war, there are actually loads of possibilities of it being one of the followwing airframes which did survive the war. most were sold off to scrap dealers 1949-51, but may well have not been scrapped, and instead sold on.
NZ2001 - to Dept of Ag, Rukuhia, possible NZ2003 - It still could be NZ2003 I guess, which was coded X with No. 1 OTU and after the war went to the Dept of Ag. What did they do with it? Was it used in the topdressing trials? Or just transport? It doesn't say a lot I know, as most of the engine is missing, but the engine scoop on top of the cowl on a Mk III Hudson is absent from that cowl ring. I assume it was detachable, but does it possibly look like a Mk V cowl? If so, that narrows it down significantly. NZ2008 - sold to Mr Edwards from Woodborune NZ2010 - sold from Taieri to Mr Caley but had been ASR aircraft so probably bare metal NZ2011 - sold to Mr Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2013 - RNZAF Museum's one, history well known NZ2015 - sold to Mr Edwards, Woodbourne NZ2017 - sold to Mr Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2022 - sold to Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2026 - sold to L. Edwards from Wigram NZ2027 - sold to Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2030 - sold to Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2032 - sold Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2035 - Ferrymead example NZ2036 - Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2038 - INST at TTS Nelson 1943, disposal unknown NZ2042 - To Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2043 - ditto NZ2049 - Sold to mr Edwards, onto Jim Clarke, onto John Smith, now at Wakefield NZ2053 - Sold Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2056 - ditto NZ2058 - ditto NZ2059 - sold Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2060 - sold Edwards, Woodbourne NZ2067 - unknown buyer NZ2068 - sold Edwards, Woodb NZ2069 - ditto NZ2070 - Sold from Nelson to Metal Smelting and Refining Co NZ2071 - sold Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2072 - ditto NZ2073 - ditto NZ2075 - ditto NZ2078 - ditto NZ2079 - sold Asplin, Rukuhia NZ2080 - sold to Mr MacIntosh NZ2082 - sold to Larsen, Rukuhia NZ2083 - ditto NZ2084 - ditto, fuselage now with Ferrymead NZ2085 - sold to Metal Smelting and Refining Co Ltd, was ASR so probably bare metal NZ2086 - sold to Larsen NZ2087 - sold to Metal Smelting and Refining Co Ltd NZ2089 - sold to Edwards NZ2090 - sold to Larsen NZ2091 - sold to Larsen NZ2092 - sold to Larsen NZ2094 - sold to Larsen
Possibilities, Also David Duxbury's article from the AHNZS journal of Dec 1997 says that NZ2040 was the D/F (direction fider) aircraft in scruffy camouflage till 1947. That aircraft was sold from Nelson to Metal Smelting and Refining Co Ltd. on the 22nd of November 1951. So unlikely as a candidate but possible.
Note its tires look immaculate - those leaning on the fuselage.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2007 0:38:14 GMT 12
I have just had another awful thought, the positioning of the two large tires aft and the two smaller tires on the nose makes me wonder if some loon was planning on turning this once beautiful aircraft into a bus?
|
|
|
Post by denysjones on Feb 2, 2007 19:37:11 GMT 12
Its definitely a Hudson and there were two at Asplins coded X and Y so that's a very early pic I guess before Y joined it. I recal driving past Asplins in the 1970s and there they were.
I've always been led to believe that NZ2084 that you (erroneously) credit to Ferrymead is in fact the remains of one or other after film use. If that is the fact then after it passed through the RNZAF Museum's hands it was acquired by Nigel (Aviators' Gallery) Wilcox but I know not where it is now. It spent a brief period on site at Ferrymead as a favour to Nigel but was never anything more than that.
Also in your post on Bill Reid getting John Smith's Hudson are you wrong to put a J Clarke in the picture?
Jas Clarke of Oamaru's Hudson is the one now at Wigram. My understanding (without rummaging through the files) is that John's one came from Appelby where it kept company with the Ventura now at MoTaT so are you claiming that by co-incidence the owner there was also a Jim Clarke (seems amazing to me given that Jas and Jim are both abbreviations for James).
There was a Hudson disposed of from Wigram that ended up with a family called Shearer north of Kaiapoi but by the time I got to them late 1970s it had long gone to the scrap heap. I always suspect that to be Mr Edwards again.
Our Ferrymead Hudson was one of the batch of 6 bought by Mr Edwards from Woodbourne and then on sold. One ended up with my uncle Bert Crouch in Blenheim and he butchered it and made a horse float out of it. I vaguely recall it in his yard when I was a youngster but have no idea of the serial and Bert's long gone now.
The wheels leaning against the fuselage are way too big to be Hudson and the hub is quite wrong.
The circular hole port side upper rear of the cockpit is in fact where an insulating plastic plate mounts through which the aerial feeds down from the top of the aerial mast still in situ.
I know of a Hudson sold at Taeri to a Dunedin family who turned it into a caravan and it is still existant under some trees in the Catlins, well it was two years or so ago.
throw all that around in the mixer!
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2007 20:49:36 GMT 12
Thanks Denys, I had hoped you'd have some more answers here. I'll address each pint below. Its definitely a Hudson and there were two at Asplins coded X and Y so that's a very early pic I guess before Y joined it. I recal driving past Asplins in the 1970s and there they were. Well that seems to clear up the photo's location. My erroneous mention of Ferrymead comes from Ivan Prince's adf.serials website and someone else has mentioned it to me too, but as you've explained the airframe was only stored at your museum for a time, I concede it was incorrect. Thanks for clearing that up. The film use was - according to a ginger headed corporal who worked on the RNZAF Museum's Hudson restoration who's name i have annoyingly forgotten - was apparently used in the children's series 'The Sea Urchins' which was made by TVNZ in the mid-1970's, and starred in its cast Rebecca Gibney in her first ever role, and a couple of young Maori boys. One site says one of them was Robbie Rakete but I have not confirmed this. the scene was these kids found a WWII bomber submerged in the sea. The fuselage was sunk into water somewhere on the Auckland coastline. Everything I have read and heard, it was loaned to Mr. Wilcox. Not sold. I don't know for sure if this is the case. Cheers. A pity it didn't stay with you. I know the RNZAF Museum sent a lot of its spare stuff to a scrap dealer at one stage, I hope it wasn't among it! My understanding is that James (Jas) Clarke of Maheno had two Hudson aircraft, NZ2013 and NZ2049. They were both on his farm at Maheno, Gardeners Valley, Oamaru. This is according to Veteran and Vintage Aircraft - 4th edition (1974) which I believe was written by respected aviation writer Les Hunt. There are certainly two Hudsons mentioned in his possession in a Wings magazine around 1979-80 which i can look out for you if you're interested. He was selling up and shifting to a new farm. It did not say where, but I guess it could have been to Appleby? I know nothing about the Motat's one being with 2049, I hadn't heard that. My account above may not be accurate but it's based upon sources mentioned so I was putting 2 and 2 together. Does it = 3? It seems quite a few passed through the scrappers onto farmers, doesn't it? What a great pity. I did wonder. I was being a little tongue in cheek when i said it's wheels looked in fine condition. But I had to wonder about the positioning, it looks a little deliberate like it was a pretend bus, or some plan to make a bus out of it was formulating. Wow. Is the caravan in good condition? It's probably a museum piece in itself. Indeed. It's a confusing business. So, let me get this straight, was NZ2084 definately one of the two Asplin Garage X and Y airframes, and definately the fuselage that K. Pennell is reported in NZ Wings as donating to the RNZAF Musuem, and definately the one that was in the TV show, and the one that went to the gallery and has disappeared? All things seem to point that way. Also, has anyone any idea of the identity of the Hudson fuselage top section that is on Phil Treweek's Kiwi Aircraft Images site, which he states was at Ohakea's museum. Is it still there? And where did they acquire it from?
|
|
|
Post by mumbles on Feb 2, 2007 22:55:23 GMT 12
Cheers. A pity it didn't stay with you. I know the RNZAF Museum sent a lot of its spare stuff to a scrap dealer at one stage, I hope it wasn't among it! Didn't the RNZAF scrap an Me 109 at one point? Or was it an Albatross? The section of Hudson fuse is still at Ohakea as far as I know. I saw it there fairly recently.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2007 23:09:11 GMT 12
The Messerschmidt and Albatross were both scrapped during the war, due to lack of space and interest. The Albatross had been in a museum but was borrowed back for a bonds drive exhibition, and when the RNZAF wanted to return it to Canterbury Museum, they didn't want it back. The '109 was just a tool, used by the TTS to train mechanics on the different engineering of the Daimler engine, etc. It was a war prize but of little interest by 1945.
The thing is, there was no aviation museum movement then. There was in the mid-1990's when the RNZAF museum sent a whole lot of items to be scrapped. Most of it was rescued back by concerned citizens apparently. Some wasn't.
|
|
|
Post by denysjones on Feb 3, 2007 7:01:33 GMT 12
I'm afraid some of the old reports have confused you there Dave, Les Hunt definitely had it wrong. Clarke had two aircraft on the farm yes but Hudsons no. The Hudson fuselage sat near the roadside and greeted motorists heading south. The Mosquito was around the back and around it was a mixture of Hudson and mossie bits.
(In fact when we collected the mossie some of our guys strated to throw the Hudson bombdoors on the truck because they were lying in the general scheme of things). What may also confuse things is that Clarke does crop up in the context of the purchase of two aircraft at one time as Clarke and his cousin, Pat Hayman of Studholme Junction, worked together to get the two mossies one of which ended up on each farm. I can imagine in the early days of "fact finding" that people twisted all that together.
I looked it up and the Ventura NZ4600 was with a J Russ at Appleby but I can't find the photo I had of the Hudson on the farm as well.
I'll put my money on the history of 2049 being RNZAF, Edwards, Russ, Smith, Reid.
The Me109 and Albatross saga is a long long one....I have several pix of the 109. It was displayed in WLG, at one stage it hung from the hangar roof in Nelson (wingless), and then appeared in Cathedral Sq.
There the Albatross from the Canty Museum joined it. After the bond drive was over the Museum wiped their hands of the Albatross (the generally accepted tale lays the blame at the feet of Dr R Duff) and it is generally agreed it was taken to the CCC dump where the centennial Pool is and burned. As always there are other stories!
The Me109 (WrNr 1653 and built by Erla if you're really into it all) went out to Wigram and met it's fate in the Vickeries Rd dump on the east side of the airfield. I do recall someone in AHSNZ circles in the 1960s either had or knew someone who had the tailwheel on a wheelbarrow. Seddon fenn of Wainouiomata is the authority on this beast as he was the NZ rep of Gruppe-66 when it was going.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 3, 2007 10:51:49 GMT 12
Thanks for clearing up the Hudson stuff. It's damned annoying when "reliable" sources are wrong. Thinking about it now, you reminded methat the Wings report was referring to a Mossie as Clarke's second aircraft. Sorry for the confusion.
Ramon K. Trollope's increble books on Harewood (three volumes) details the fate of teh Albatross including one or two first hand accounts from mechanics. It was taken out of Canterbury Museum to Harewood and tidied up for the display. It was displayed in Cathedral Square, then towed.trucked back to Harewood. It then sat in the corner of a hangar for ages while the bosses tried to convince the musuem to take it back. In the end a SNCO, who was named in the text, told the erks to break it up and bury it. It was buried over the back of Harewood airfield, and Trollope even published a photo pinpointing the site. It's now thought to be under the runway.
I too had read all sorts of accounts but this is much more conclusive than the "I heard..." as it was the words of the actual men who carried out the task. So I choose to belive this one till more eveidence comes up.
I've read a lot of 'Snow' Fenn's articles on the Me109. He was a friend of my Dad's back in the 1970's and 80's. He's certainly done his research on it. When he published one article in New Zealand Memories magazine the following months several more memories came into the magazine including photos, and the account of the driver who transported it from Nelson to Wigram. That's an excellent magazine by the way.
Out of interest, why did Mr Russ have the Ventura and Hudson? Were they simply nostalgic keepsakes? Ot were the engines and wheels, etc used on an apple orchard there (like the Mustangs and Mossies were later around Motueka and Upper Moutere, etc?). Any ideas?
|
|
|
Post by Peter Lewis on Feb 4, 2007 15:28:08 GMT 12
OK guys, I will now front up and admit that I took these two photos myself. Recently found them in an old file box, and I could not remember very much about them I did have a vague feeling that it could be at Asplin's garage. For those who never got there, the garage was built (and operated for some time) as a petrol station. Facing in from the road, on the left hand side there was vehicle access down the side of the building to workshops at the rear. This is where the Corsair sat. On the right side of the building there was a paved area in front of a concrete wall. This I think is where the Hudson lay, and where I photographed it. As far as I can remember, there was only one not two (but the second one may have arrived/departed when I was not around). The tyres and axles were only 'props'. As the shots are on 35mm stock, I would hazard a date as 1970-ish as I got my Practika 35mm camera around that time.
This still leaves the question of the identity of the airframe, and where it came from and where it went - so . . . any further info?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 4, 2007 15:55:31 GMT 12
Do you have any other photos from that visit Peter? The Corsair?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 4, 2007 16:12:39 GMT 12
As for putting an identity to the two aircraft in the photos, it may be difficult unless some keen person recorded them at the time.
Of the Hudsons that were disposed of, atleast 29 seem to have met a fate at Rukuhia.
Asplins got the following six 2017 2030 2032 2036 2059 2079
Jack Larsen got the following 2011 2022 2027 2042 2043 2053 2056 2058 2071 2072 2073 2075 2078 2082 2083 2084 2086 2090 2091 2092 2094
And the Dept of Ag were assigned these two 2001 2003
|
|
|
Post by Peter Lewis on Feb 4, 2007 18:15:20 GMT 12
Do you have any other photos from that visit Peter? The Corsair? This fuselage would have been the only recognizable aviation artifact on site at that late stage. The Corsair, of course, was extanat there about 10 years before. I took this shot at Asplins March 1963: This aircraft was taken to Rukuhia for cosmetic restoration to taxiing standard for the Hamilton Airport Opening in March 1966: (Mind I still maintain that I saw the wheels clear of the runway!) After this event it sat for quite some time outside by the James Aviation hangar (and got quite tatty) before going on loan to MoTAT in 1968 befor it left for overseas in 1971
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 4, 2007 18:58:46 GMT 12
Wonderful, I'm jolly glad I asked now.
Peter, did you ever venture just down the road to photograph the Corsair owned by the Walsh brothers at Cambridge? I have searched for a photo of that one for years to no avail.
|
|
|
Post by Peter Lewis on Feb 4, 2007 19:11:07 GMT 12
Sorry Dave, I never knew about the Cambridge Corsair until years after it had been destroyed. There must be a photo of it somewhere, in someone's old album, so keep looking.
Realise that at the time of these earliest aircraft photographs I was a precocious small child in a family where both my older sister and my father would run a mile rather than actually set foot in any sort of aerial conveyance, and reliant on either my family or other consenting adults to actually travel to these places where my wants/needs/desires could be satisfied. Not an easy task, believe me. Airfields were not actually on the family picnic outings!
|
|