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Post by frankly on May 29, 2017 18:50:39 GMT 12
Inspired by the excellent blog Think Defence and some common throw-away comments that keep appearing on here, I thought it would be useful to take a closer look at just how much those 'cheap' Blackhawks actually cost, and what a fleet would have cost NZ as an alternative to the NH90 fleet. USD to NZD Historical Exchange RatesExhibit A - 2010 offer of 15 Blackhawks to Sweden
The Government of Sweden has requested a possible sale of 15 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters, 34 T700-GE-701D General Electric Engines (30 installed and 4 spares), 15 AN/AAR-57(V)3 Common Missile Warning Systems, AN/APR-39 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets, Aviation Mission Planning Station, transportable operations simulator, communications equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and support equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $546M.US$546M / 15 = US$36.4M / 0.721623 = NZ$50.44M each Exhibit B - 2011 offer of 5 Blackhawks to UAEThe Government of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) has requested a possible sale of 5 UH-60M BLACKHAWK VIP helicopters, 12 T700-GE-701D engines (10 installed and 2 spares), 6 AN/APR-39A(V)4 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, 80 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Devices, 6 Star Safire III Forward Looking Infrared Radar Systems, 6 AAR-57(V)3 Common Missile Warning Systems, 6 AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets, C406 Electronic Locator Transmitters, Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems and Weather Radars, Aviation Mission Planning Station, government furnished equipment, ferry support, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, ground support, communications equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services, tools and test equipment, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $217 million.
US$217M / 5 = US$43..4M / 0.792322 = NZ$54.77M each |
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Post by dutchkiwi on May 30, 2017 6:40:53 GMT 12
... and now the total cost of the NH.90 helicopters, spares, training etc please 🤔
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pops
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by pops on Jun 1, 2017 15:14:02 GMT 12
A quick scout around for reported budgets www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/mpr-2015-vol-2.pdf (There is a reported total of $663.6 million in the NH90 section - I do not know what accounting treatment has been given to reach that figure - base year, conversions etc) A guesstimate of NZ$73.7 mill per NH90 seems a bit rough. A bit like the Blackhawk figures - collateral deal/ trade sweeteners go unrecorded i.e lamb access to the EU etc) |
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Post by dutchkiwi on Jun 3, 2017 5:28:40 GMT 12
A quick scout around for reported budgets www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/mpr-2015-vol-2.pdf (There is a reported total of $663.6 million in the NH90 section - I do not know what accounting treatment has been given to reach that figure - base year, conversions etc) A guesstimate of NZ$73.7 mill per NH90 seems a bit rough. A bit like the Blackhawk figures - collateral deal/ trade sweeteners go unrecorded i.e lamb access to the EU etc) So... the 15 UH-60M to Sweden was not that bad. Fifteen Blackhawks would be better then eight NH.90. But... it's my own humble opinion 🤗 |
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Post by The Red Baron on Jun 3, 2017 7:37:07 GMT 12
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Post by saratoga on Jun 3, 2017 9:05:15 GMT 12
Govt. projects include a 'whole of life costing' so the figure is spread over 15/20/25 years.Its not like a retail price!
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Post by frankly on Jun 3, 2017 10:28:28 GMT 12
... and now the total cost of the NH.90 helicopters, spares, training etc please 🤔 Jun 3, 2017 5:28:40 GMT 12 dutchkiwi said: So... the 15 UH-60M to Sweden was not that bad. Fifteen Blackhawks would be better then eight NH.90. But... it's my own humble opinion 🤗 Purchase price of aircraft and initial spares packages, tech support etc, NZ$480M / 8 frames = $60M At February 2005 the NZ Dollar was buying 0.6 Euros. By 2010 it was typically buying 0.5 Euros, some times as little as 0.4. That's a sizeable currency shift during the period the capital outlay was most likely occurring.
Source
Total project costs includes elements like infrastructure upgrades, flight time support introduction in to serve etc. Some of those are big chunks of money, like the very large 3 Squadron hangar with multiple fire cells and high seismic rating. A mix of 15 medium choppers was considered part of the project. They would have required 8 LUHs to generate sufficient crews. That option was assessed as
* Does not meet essential affordability or supportability requirements.
* Capital and whole of life costs high
*ï‚· No allowance made for attrition
*ï‚· Personnel requirements exceed current establishment and would be difficult to generate.
15 Blackhawks were required to meet the operational payload requirements, therefore option didn't work.
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Post by frankly on Jun 3, 2017 10:35:18 GMT 12
Govt. projects include a 'whole of life costing' so the figure is spread over 15/20/25 years.Its not like a retail price! No it isn't, but those FMS prices typically include the initial few years of consumables and the major notables required. The price typically won't include overhauls, which for engines is often large (think between $5-10M for the large commercial turbofans). The Whole of Life Costs quoted (like the $700M - ish for NH90) will include financial overheads, infrastructure, proportion of air force pers etc. But if the capability isn't purchased and the pers retained, those costs are essentially added to another capability. SaveSave |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 3, 2017 18:12:30 GMT 12
Frankly, off topic but I have always wondered why your posts always seem to end with that "Save Save" thing?
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Post by frankly on Jun 3, 2017 19:07:15 GMT 12
Frankly, off topic but I have always wondered why your posts always seem to end with that "Save Save" thing? No idea Dave, they don't appear in the posting window. Can't see them until after posting. SaveSave |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 3, 2017 19:48:24 GMT 12
Hmmm. Weird.
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jeffref
Flight Lieutenant
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Post by jeffref on Jun 3, 2017 20:08:46 GMT 12
... and now the total cost of the NH.90 helicopters, spares, training etc please 🤔 Jun 3, 2017 5:28:40 GMT 12 dutchkiwi said: So... the 15 UH-60M to Sweden was not that bad. Fifteen Blackhawks would be better then eight NH.90. But... it's my own humble opinion 🤗 Purchase price of aircraft and initial spares packages, tech support etc, NZ$480M / 8 frames = $60M At February 2005 the NZ Dollar was buying 0.6 Euros. By 2010 it was typically buying 0.5 Euros, some times as little as 0.4. That's a sizeable currency shift during the period the capital outlay was most likely occurring. Did the RNZAF buy 8 or 9 airframes? I understood there was an extra kept for spares?
Source
Total project costs includes elements like infrastructure upgrades, flight time support introduction in to serve etc. Some of those are big chunks of money, like the very large 3 Squadron hangar with multiple fire cells and high seismic rating. A mix of 15 medium choppers was considered part of the project. They would have required 8 LUHs to generate sufficient crews. That option was assessed as
* Does not meet essential affordability or supportability requirements.
* Capital and whole of life costs high
*ï‚· No allowance made for attrition
*ï‚· Personnel requirements exceed current establishment and would be difficult to generate.
15 Blackhawks were required to meet the operational payload requirements, therefore option didn't work.
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jeffref
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 74
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Post by jeffref on Jun 3, 2017 20:09:21 GMT 12
Did the RNZAF buy 8 or 9 airframes? I understood there was an extra kept for spares?
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Post by camtech on Jun 3, 2017 20:46:20 GMT 12
9 frames with one as a source of spares.
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Post by dutchkiwi on Jun 3, 2017 22:38:43 GMT 12
9 frames with one as a source of spares. So... eight airframes. The number nine came later after the last was delivered (and not included in the original contract). |
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Post by frankly on Jun 4, 2017 9:08:24 GMT 12
Did the RNZAF buy 8 or 9 airframes? I understood there was an extra kept for spares? The NHI assembly line receives parts kits from the member companies for final assembly. The "9th aircraft" was actually the ninth lot of parts kits and instead of being assembled on the line it was shipped still in kit form. The fuselage shell is in the 3 squadron hangar and used as a training aide. SaveSave |
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Post by camtech on Jun 4, 2017 13:04:18 GMT 12
Apparently it was considerably cheaper to build a spares stock using the kit of parts, along with a fuselage shell, than buying the parts individually.
Some sources say the "9th aircraft" was not the final delivery, but part way through the process. Can this be confirmed?
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