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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Sept 8, 2017 16:29:25 GMT 12
Dickheads who desecrate anything with graffiti don't deserve to have their legacy preserved in my opinion. A lot of that would have been kids when it was just another old aeroplane in a playground; and it was probably expected that it would eventually be scrapped when excessive corrosion set in. I was one of those kids who used to play in her when she resided in the playground at Havelock North, but I cannot remember all these decades later whether or not I ever scratched my initials into the paintwork, although somehow I doubt I would have.
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Post by jp on Sept 8, 2017 18:40:31 GMT 12
Graffiti on aircraft is often factory applied - plenty of people on production lines signed their names discretely in/on aircraft. And what about "Flak Bait" at the Smithsonian? apart from some signatures added after the war, the bare patch on the nose where people have worn the paint off by touching it are part of its history... If one of the pilots/aircrew had scratched their initials on it, would they still be a dickhead who had desecrated the airframe or not?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 8, 2017 19:37:44 GMT 12
That is entirely different from some hoodlum punk kid desecrating public property (of any sort) for the hell of it. Not everything that is old has actual historic value either, there is no value at all to someone's initials scratched into the paint of an aircraft like a tomcat marking its territory.
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Post by jp on Sept 8, 2017 22:09:50 GMT 12
or....different people place different values on signatures/initials/graffiti than others (snob appeal?) - if banksy had graffitied the Avenger, it would be worth more as a work of art than as an aircraft, and the people scrubbing off the paint would be desecrating a work of art.....
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Post by planewriting on Sept 8, 2017 22:42:22 GMT 12
Perhaps Peter Layne can keep withdrawl symptons to a minimum. The readership has filled nearly half a page since Les made this suggestion a mere six hours ago so it looks like the withdrawal symptons are under control without my intervention. Just referring to the scratching on of letters such as "he loves she" types etc; those were done in the days when old surviving aeroplanes were not looked on in the way we view them now. They were merely serving a novelty interest to keep kids amused. As we know from elsewhere on this forum there have been several aircraft (including three Avengers) serving this purpose, particularly in the 1960s. Anyway, I will try and find interesting stages of development in Mike's absence.
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Post by chbessexboy on Sept 9, 2017 10:17:13 GMT 12
or....different people place different values on signatures/initials/graffiti than others (snob appeal?) - if banksy had graffitied the Avenger, it would be worth more as a work of art than as an aircraft, and the people scrubbing off the paint would be desecrating a work of art..... Agreed, and well put. That it became covered in graffitti of the kind where children left their mark is an indication of its popularity as a play-thing at the time. If it had been ignored it may not have remained there so long. It is thanks to its period as a novelty attraction that it survived at all. History is history, and while some aspects of it can be less exciting, important, or glamorous, it is history nonetheless. It may be stretching the point too far, but in an era of 'alternative truth', it's worth remembering that this aircraft was built to combat regimes in countries that were selective with history - and in some cases still are.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Sept 9, 2017 11:11:20 GMT 12
So how many retired aircraft are in playgrounds now to grab the attention of a new generation of aviation enthusiasts? I still recall playing on Pahiatua Harvard and Avenger (and Valentine tank) at Rotorua. Playgound and plighted aircraft previously discussed at rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/2208/playground-odd-places-aircraft
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Post by mumbles on Sept 9, 2017 11:11:22 GMT 12
Or just kids being kids. That's an incredibly broad brush you are using there. It could be argued that placing such aircraft in a playground is a bigger act of vandalism than any damage the intended users inflicted on it. The graffiti is part of the aircraft's history whether you like it or not.
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Post by markrogers on Sept 9, 2017 13:30:17 GMT 12
"It could be argued that placing such aircraft in a playground is a bigger act of vandalism...." That's ridiculous, putting an aircraft in a playground is an act of vandalism? No, I don't think so!!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 9, 2017 14:11:12 GMT 12
I have never had the urge to write my initials or anything else on an old aeroplane, or a playground tractor, or a school desk, or anything that did not belong to me. I have also never witnessed any of my friends doing it nor seen any marks that might be from people I know. I do not see the point in it, it is not nice to desecrate other people's property and it simply makes me angry when I see tag or scratched initials. It's a purely selfish act that others have to deal with. Defending it as just something kids do? No, normal kids don't do that, not those brought up properly to respect their environment and the property of others, anyway.
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Post by planewriting on Sept 12, 2017 7:43:11 GMT 12
A lot has been mentioned lately about the paint work and the arrival of many more parts. Behind the scenes the restoration team has been working on, and has installed, a new cockpit floor. Good thinking to do this early as there will be a lot of time spent later in that area fitting it out.
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Post by Mustang51 on Sept 12, 2017 8:48:43 GMT 12
There shall be a great deal of tin bashing on that machine before it emerges. Much thought needs to go into the sequencing of how that is to take place otherwise one can paint oneself into a corner and not have access that is required to do the job correctly. As to graffiti....mindless tagging etc, defacing of trains and public places. Throw them in jail. However, it is a human trait that goes back in time. I have seen Roman graffiti in Pompeii so it is nothing new..... and please (although I love it) it was NOT the Centurion from Life of Brian !
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Post by planewriting on Sept 12, 2017 14:06:30 GMT 12
No question about it that there is much to be done but rest assured Mustang 51 NZ2539 is in good hands. Some of the team have been LAMEs for several decades and I have every confidence in their ability and organisation to get the best result. In all, there are about 20 men working on the project; most of them "created" the Kittyhawk and restored Avenger NZ2505. Some parts of NZ2539 are in far better condition than their equivalents on NZ2505.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 13, 2017 14:08:17 GMT 12
That runnable P-40 alone is testament to the miracles this team can perform!
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Post by ZacYates on Sept 13, 2017 15:27:24 GMT 12
After seeing that and NZ2505 in person I knew that NZ2539 is in good hands! Amazing work being done by very talented and resourceful folk.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 13, 2017 16:38:42 GMT 12
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Post by kiwi285 on Sept 14, 2017 9:40:26 GMT 12
I was talking to Nigel Godfrey last night and, although I have only sent him a couple of photos as yet of the broken hinge point, he already knows how he can manufacture the two pieces that make these up. How is that for fast service and a willingness to help out. Really appreciate your help Nigel.
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Post by planecrazy on Sept 14, 2017 9:53:48 GMT 12
Said it before, really enjoying the pictures and the great work all these people are doing, well done and thank you!
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Post by kiwi285 on Sept 14, 2017 14:18:50 GMT 12
Hi guys and gals,
We really appreciate your kind words and encouragement with these projects. Sometimes you look at what state the aircraft is in and you wonder how much easier it would have been if you could have put your hands on it about 10 or 15 years earlier. I know that everyone involved in restoration work is in the same boat no matter what the object is that you are working with. Still it keeps the brain functioning and gives you some great people that you can give heaps to and get some great laughs.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 14, 2017 14:27:30 GMT 12
Doing it from the current state back to restored item must mean more fun and satisfaction though.
I'm sure many of the restoration team members are following this thread and enjoy the interest and encouragement too. You're all doing amazing stuff, keep up the great work.
Mike, it may be too early to ask this but what state is the engine in? Will te team attempt to restore the original engine to runnable condition or seek another donk?
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