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Post by kiwi285 on Dec 11, 2017 18:31:57 GMT 12
Here is one for the experts to ponder. On Sunday at the volunteers Christmas get together, I had a friend, who machines parts for us, come and look over the Avenger. On looking at the wings he asked the reason for the extra large wing roundel on both panels and I couldn't answer the question. You can still see the original USN star at about the inboard end of the aileron and the RNZAF one about mid aileron both about the same size. However well inboard of these two there is a really large roundel (FAA ? perhaps) that I have never seen before. It takes up most of the wing chord at that point and looks to be UK colours. Does anybody have an answer for this and is there any photos around that show this marking in period. 111217 (1) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 111217 (2) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 111217 (3) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 11, 2017 18:59:58 GMT 12
It's a good question. The FAA did tend to have much larger roundels on the tops of their Avengers' wings compared with the RNZAF and US Navy examples, but I don't know why they are so far inboard.
Is it known where and when NZ2539 was built?
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Post by Bruce on Dec 11, 2017 20:07:42 GMT 12
I reckon they are "Playground" Roundels painted during its time on Playground duty, they seem to have far too many rings for any standard service marking.
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Post by kiwi285 on Dec 11, 2017 20:20:13 GMT 12
Here is a quick summary of the history of 2539. If it was a TBF then it was built by Grumman probably on Long Island in 1943.
NZ2539 C/n 5782 Bu 48016 History - Arrived in New Zealand on the ship "Peter White". - Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot, Hobsonville and Brought on Charge 12 February 1944 with Unit 36, at Hobsonville. - To Nausori, Fiji in 1944 for use by the Communications Flight, returning to New Zealand in January 1945. - One of the last 3 Avengers on strength with the RNZAF. - Sold by GSB tender number SR228/59 dated 23 September 1959 to Bennett Aviation, Te Kuiti. - To children's playground at Havelock North on 24 August 1965. - Recovered and now believed to be in storage with Ken Jacobs in Auckland. - Currently with Classic Flyers Museum in Tauranga for restoration to taxiing condition.
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Post by kiwi285 on Dec 11, 2017 20:22:44 GMT 12
I reckon they are "Playground" Roundels painted during its time on Playground duty, they seem to have far too many rings for any standard service marking. If it was a playground marking then whoever did it made a good job of the masking. I agree that there appears to be too many rings to the device. And the colours appear to be blue and white only.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 11, 2017 21:40:53 GMT 12
Maybe they were bulls eye markings for when it towed targets?
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Post by baz62 on Dec 12, 2017 16:51:33 GMT 12
Wouldn't be FAA as she was always operated by the RNZAF. Yes I think its a playground roundel. All the photos I've seen the roundels are in line with the aileron.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2017 17:43:13 GMT 12
But Baz it was possibly from a batch built for the FAA under Lend Lease so may have had FAA markings applied in the factory.
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Post by saratoga on Dec 12, 2017 19:06:55 GMT 12
Its actually very faded red hinomarus from the time it was captured by the Japanese,when they landed on the Gisborne coast..then dumped by the Americans in one of their infamous mass dumping grounds, location un-memorable...
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Post by markrogers on Dec 12, 2017 20:04:52 GMT 12
The large inboard roundels are playground markings, I remember reading somewhere in this thread or another one that a lady had said that a relation from her family did the paint job on it when it was taken to the playground. They would'nt be FAA roundels, they're too far inboard and don't look like actual ones for that.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2017 20:17:03 GMT 12
I agree with you. And I think that 'lady' you mentioned might have been Zac Yates, talking about his grandfather, wasn't it?
Referring to FAA roundels however, you'd be surprised at some of the variation in roundel sizes and styles they had by late war. Some really odd roundels in the Eastern Fleet particularly.
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Post by ZacYates on Dec 12, 2017 20:33:47 GMT 12
The lady shall ask her relation.
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Post by baz62 on Dec 12, 2017 20:51:29 GMT 12
But Baz it was possibly from a batch built for the FAA under Lend Lease so may have had FAA markings applied in the factory. According to RNZAF Hobbyvista all our Avengers arrived in the US Navy 4 tone scheme with RAF style roundels applied either at the factory or here. If the FAA marking were applied the FAA colour scheme would be there too which would require a repaint of the whole airframe.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2017 20:59:56 GMT 12
Yes that is probably quite true Baz.
Interestingly a load of our RNZAF Avengers were handed over to the Fleet Air Arm when we were finished with them, and Ray Deerness has found evidence that some of them actually got all the way to Britain.
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Post by baz62 on Dec 13, 2017 6:17:21 GMT 12
Wow really? I thought they all got tipped over the side with there ones. If I recall correctly NZ2522 was one taken by the FAA? I watched that National Film Unit film of the carrier in port loading up our Avengers. Was peering at it trying to see what colour schemes and serial numbers I could see but I think could only make out NZ2509 from memory and they seemed to all be in target tug black and yellow stripes.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Dec 14, 2017 9:38:04 GMT 12
I reckon there is too much speculation on the origins of the markings on NZ2539. The 48 Grumman Avengers for the RNZAF were NZ2501-2506 (TBF1/1C, NZ2507-2548 TBF1C all built by Grumman and delivered ex-USN production runs. The AF380 (Master register of RNZAF Aircraft) shows no corresponding FAA serials to indicate they were diverted from FAA requirements. This is also confirmed by a lack of entry stating so in the Master book of British aircraft Serials 1878-1987. The FAA operated Grumman built TBF1B (their designation for the TBF1C in their serial ranges FN750-FN949 and JZ100-JZ300) The RNZAF aircraft ISSUED to the British fleet were: NZ2509,2510,2514,2517,2522,2523,2535,2547. The important statement here is that they were ISSUED not returned, again indicating that they were never FAA intended machines. Additionally all of my research and scanning of photographs of the period show that our avengers arrived at Hobsonville in standard USN colour schemes with US national markings only. The spurious roundels on NZ2539 would have been applied during its various tours as a playground object.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 14, 2017 10:26:26 GMT 12
Yes, agreed. Options were explored and dismissed. We'll have to wait for Ray to comment on those that got to the UK, I have forgotten the details.
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Post by Mustang51 on Dec 14, 2017 14:08:26 GMT 12
Dave, Ref oversized roundels etc. All you have to do is to look at some of the pics of the earlier P-47s. I distinctly remember one with four HUGE wing stars and bars. Guessing he did not want to be mistaken somehow for an FW190.
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Post by kiwi285 on Dec 16, 2017 9:29:12 GMT 12
Here are a few photos from yesterday showing the progress. The upper surfaces of the wing centre section are now skinned around the leading edge and on the starboard side they have moved onto the under surface and repairs to the structure of the rear section. We have access to a small rolling machine and are able to roll the beads onto the replacement sheeting around the mating surface of the inner and outer panels. The instrument panels are being remanufactured and instruments test mounted and Bruce as Bob get stuck into the cockpit and the hydraulics for the wing fold and bomb bay doors. I have also included a photo of one of the amplidyne motors used to power the turret. We have both of these available so Lane is going to overhaul them and see what he can work out with the turret mechanism. In the 5 months since the aircraft arrived from up north we have made some great progress. We are all looking forward to 2018. 151217 (12) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (13) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (14) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (15) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (7) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (8) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (6) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (3) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr 151217 (10) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr
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Post by skyhawkdon on Dec 16, 2017 10:42:20 GMT 12
The progress you guys are making on this is amazing. You are a shining example of what can be done with the right attitude!
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