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Post by smithy on Sept 22, 2017 8:21:54 GMT 12
Hi all,
I was wondering whether anyone has seen (or even better has) any photos of the Tempests used by 485 and whilst they were in use with them, apart from the squadron group photo in front of one at Predannack in Cornwall? I like to think I have a pretty good collection of info, books and documents relating to 485 but in all my time of being interested in them I've only ever seen that one photo. There were apparently 7 Tempests used by 485 for that very brief period before relocation back to the Continent and equipping with Spit XVIs.
To be honest this might be a very long shot but as they say, if you don't ask you'll never know.
I imagine that they weren't coded up with OU codes or could they have been? I was under the impression that these Tempests were possibly being shared for conversion with another squadron at Predannack, 349?
Anyway any help, discussion welcomed.
Tim
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2017 11:21:37 GMT 12
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Post by smithy on Sept 22, 2017 19:10:21 GMT 12
I saw and read that thread Dave but being originally about the Special Hobby modelling kit and being in the Modelling section I thought that there's the chance that it could be missed by someone not into modelling. I'm interested in whether anyone has seen photos of 485 using Tempests (other than the semi-formal group snap). As I mention it's a very long shot but you sometimes never know what photos people have tucked away in their collections and especially unpublished ones.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2017 19:55:23 GMT 12
The closest I can offer is this photo of a No. 33 Squadron RAF Hawker Tempest 5R-L at RAF Predannack sometime between the 15th of December 1944 and the 20th of February 1945: This comes from the collection of New Zealander W/C Dereck "Bill" Kain who was Commanding Officer of RAF Predannack at the time. I don't know if these are the same aircraft used by No. 485 (NZ) Squadron there when that squadron arrived just as No. 33 Squadron was leaving, but I thought it might be of interest. Here's a close look at the same photo. I have no idea what happened but I note chocks behind the wheels and it looks like a cricket pitch roller in front of the Tempest? Note the aircraft in the background wears invasion stripes but 5R-L doesn't. It's serial number ends with 678,not sure what the serial letters were.
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Post by smithy on Sept 22, 2017 20:47:19 GMT 12
Many thanks Dave and that's a wonderful image! That does indeed look like a cricket roller.
We know the serials of the Tempests used by 485 (EJ900, EJ904, EJ975, EK252, EK347, EK492 and EK512) so this airframe wasn't used by them. I suspect that 33 flew these aircraft out to the Continent when they departed Predannack so this image probably predates 485 Sqn's arrival there. It would be interesting to know how the Tempests used by 485 were coded. I was under the impression that normally all conversion/GSU/OTU units have to be coded in some form so as to be identifiable (I've always imagined this was in a large part to prevent stunt/reckless flying). Where this becomes problematic is that there's a very good chance that 485 were sharing their Tempests (and Typhoons) with 349 Sqn who were also tasked with conversion to Tempests at the same time as 485 at Predannack so you wonder how were these aircraft coded, if at all?
What's frustrating is that 485 were there for nearly 2 months but so far only one solitary photo of them with a Tempest.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2017 23:15:31 GMT 12
I just realised I also scanned the back of the above photo and it says: "PHOTOGRAPHIC SECTION DATE 11.1.45 REF G/PRD/254 R.A.F. PREDANNACK"
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 22, 2017 23:46:20 GMT 12
Here are two more photos from Bill's collection officially stamped on the back as being RAF Predannack. Not as exciting as a Hawker Tempest perhaps but I am sure the No. 485 (NZ) Squadron blokes will have used that same gym, and maybe the same crew room as seen here too. "PHOTOGRAPHIC SECTION DATE 6.11.44 REF G/PRD/219 R.A.F. PREDANNACK" "PHOTOGRAPHIC SECTION DATE 30.3.43 REF G/PRD/112 R.A.F. PREDANNACK"
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 1:11:26 GMT 12
Keep them coming Dave. I love these sorts of images as well because they give you a great deal of information about where they lived and worked from.
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Post by noooby on Sept 23, 2017 9:03:37 GMT 12
Many thanks Dave and that's a wonderful image! That does indeed look like a cricket roller. We know the serials of the Tempests used by 485 (EJ900, EJ904, EJ975, EK252, EK347, EK492 and EK512) so this airframe wasn't used by them. I suspect that 33 flew these aircraft out to the Continent when they departed Predannack so this image probably predates 485 Sqn's arrival there. It would be interesting to know how the Tempests used by 485 were coded. I was under the impression that normally all conversion/GSU/OTU units have to be coded in some form so as to be identifiable (I've always imagined this was in a large part to prevent stunt/reckless flying). Where this becomes problematic is that there's a very good chance that 485 were sharing their Tempests (and Typhoons) with 349 Sqn who were also tasked with conversion to Tempests at the same time as 485 at Predannack so you wonder how were these aircraft coded, if at all? What's frustrating is that 485 were there for nearly 2 months but so far only one solitary photo of them with a Tempest. I'm afraid the above Serial Numbers are all for Typhoons, not Tempests. Did 485 ever get Tempests? I know they were flying Typhoons awaiting Tempests when they converted back to the Spitfire. All the above Serial Numbers are from Part 2 of the Third Production Batch of Typhoons, from Glosters. Deliveries started on the 20th of Sept 1942 and the last one of this batch was delivered on 5th May 1943. All were Mark 1B's. Serials included in this second batch were EJ900-EJ934, EJ946-EJ995, EK112-EK154, EK167-EK197, EK208-EK252, EK266-EK301, EK321-EK348, EK364-EK413, EK425-EK456, EK472-EK512, EK535-EK543. I need to go look at the other thread and see if it is a Tempest in the photo! Just went and checked the other thread. The serials quoted in there for 485 Tempests are PV670, PV512 and PV909. No Typhoons or Tempests were built with PV Serial Numbers. I believe the whole PV series was Spitfires. So still no Tempest Serial Numbers that are linked to 485. More research required people!!!
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 9:25:24 GMT 12
All the above Serial Numbers are from Part 2 of the Third Production Batch of Typhoons, from Glosters. Deliveries started on the 20th of Sept 1942 and the last one of this batch was delivered on 5th May 1943. All were Mark 1B's. You're exactly right and my mistake as I copied the wrong line in my post above, those were the Tiffies used by 485. But we do actually know the Tempests used by 485 and their serials were EJ882, NV701, NV682, NV756, NV762, NV922 and NV939. Cheers, Tim
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 23, 2017 20:10:24 GMT 12
Keep them coming Dave. I love these sorts of images as well because they give you a great deal of information about where they lived and worked from. I love photos like this too but these are the only ones i have from Predannack like this. But given they were official photos I suspect someone got the station photographer to take more like this.
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 22:57:16 GMT 12
Keep them coming Dave. I love these sorts of images as well because they give you a great deal of information about where they lived and worked from. I love photos like this too but these are the only ones i have from Predannack like this. But given they were official photos I suspect someone got the station photographer to take more like this. Oh without a doubt there will have been/will be many more photos. That's one of the exciting things about researching this and this period, there are multitudes of new photos and new information to be found hidden away in private collections or buried in dusty historical collections. I've been researching one of my rellies for quite some time now and I'm still finding new things or being contacted by those who have something new. I really wouldn't be surprised if there are other photos of 485 with their Tempests but they're probably long forgotten and stuffed in a box in someone's attic with the current owner completely oblivious to what they are.
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Post by noooby on Sept 24, 2017 4:53:40 GMT 12
All the above Serial Numbers are from Part 2 of the Third Production Batch of Typhoons, from Glosters. Deliveries started on the 20th of Sept 1942 and the last one of this batch was delivered on 5th May 1943. All were Mark 1B's. You're exactly right and my mistake as I copied the wrong line in my post above, those were the Tiffies used by 485. But we do actually know the Tempests used by 485 and their serials were EJ882, NV701, NV682, NV756, NV762, NV922 and NV939. Cheers, Tim Awesome! Thanks Tim! EJ882 was part of the second batch of Tempest V's. Produced between May 44 and Sep 44. I don't have anything for this aircraft, but EJ880 was with 33 Sqn at Predannack in Dec 44, coded 5R-R, being used for conversion training on Tempests. NV682 was part of the third production batch. Sabre IIB as opposed to the IIA engine on EJ882. NV682 was with 222 Sqn at Predannack in Jan 45 coded as ZD-P being used for conversion training on Tempests. NV701 also part of the third batch. No info for it, but NV700 was used by Sqn Ldr E. D. Mackie RNZAF to shoot down a FW190D on 7Mar45 and 2 Bf108's on 9Apr45. NV756 also part of the third batch. No info for it, but NV757 was also at Predannack with 33Sqn in Dec 44 coded 5R-Y being used for conversion training on Tempests. NV762 also part of the third batch. No info for it. NV922 also part of the third batch. Converted to a TT Mark 5 based at Sylt APC. NV939 also part of the third batch. With 222 Sqn at Predannack in Feb 45 coded ZD-H. I'm just looking through my Typhoon/Tempest literature to look for photos of them. I have about 20 books to go through. Cheers Graham
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 9:48:50 GMT 12
So from Graham's post, it might be that the No. 33 Squadron Tempests did in fact remain at Predannack when that squadron left,and were indeed flown by No. 485 (NZ) Squadron members.
Was Rosie Mackie in No. 485 Squadron? I associate him with No. 486 (NZ) Squadron. Was he in both?
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Post by noooby on Sept 24, 2017 10:23:30 GMT 12
486. It was a different Tempest but only one serial number out from one used by 485.
It does sound like the Tempests stayed at Predannack while the squadrons came in, converted and then left. I might be able to find more info about those particular Tempests, but it will take me a while to track down. Most of the info I have only concerns serial numbers that had "highlights" in their service. The fact that none of the Tempests used by 485 pop up in that is what I'm basing my assumption about those machines staying in Predannack on.
Training machines would never go operational, so wouldn't feature in those "highlights".
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 10:43:51 GMT 12
I wonder if the RAF Predannack Station Records Book is available from the National Archive at Kew.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 13:48:45 GMT 12
So from Graham's post, it might be that the No. 33 Squadron Tempests did in fact remain at Predannack when that squadron left,and were indeed flown by No. 485 (NZ) Squadron members. Was Rosie Mackie in No. 485 Squadron? I associate him with No. 486 (NZ) Squadron. Was he in both? Rosie was with 485 but well before the sojourn in Predannack. He was with them from August 1941 until January 1943, in fact 485 was his first operational posting after leaving 58 OTU. What becomes interesting for me if 33 left their Tempests in Cornwall is the fact that we know from photographic evidence that they were marked with 33's squadron codes during their time there. So does that mean that 485 and 349 flew aircraft still wearing 33 (and 222) codes for nearly 2 months or were the aircraft repainted and with what, or if any, codes?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 14:40:15 GMT 12
Is there a list of all the pilots who were on No. 485 (NZ) Squadron at the time of the Typhoon and Tempest conversion? Maybe we can find some logbooks that reveal more, some pilots may have noted if they had OU- codes.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 14:53:37 GMT 12
I'll dig my 485 books and bits and pieces out later (it's very late or very early here depending on how you look at it) so don't want to wake the whole house. But I'm pretty sure I can give a complete list of 485 personnel at Predannack.
I suppose the Holy Grail would be if there was a Tempest or Tempests with OU codes but even though I'd like to think so, the jury is out. It's a lovely idea but as we know there was a shortage of Tempests at the time - hence why neither 485 nor 349 fully converted - so whether this happened who knows. But on the other hand it would be odd for both these squadrons to keep using aircraft with different unit codes for so long. We know that 485 operated 7 Tiffies and 7 Tempests but it would be interesting to confirm whether these 14 airframes were the complete complement at Predannack at the time and therefore shared between 485 and 349. In which case how were they coded, painted up split between 485 and 349 codes or something else.
I think that apart from long lost photos suddenly appearing the best bet is as you suggest Dave are pilot logbooks.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 24, 2017 14:57:40 GMT 12
I find it odd for a squadron of around 20 something pilots could not all be converted to the type in that length of time, two months, with seven of each aircraft available. Maybe the weather played a part but I thought Cornwall was meant to be pretty good weather even in winter and early spring.
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