Ranks and abbreviations

[Dave Homewood]

So does the difference between the CO being the rank of Wing Commander or Squadron Leader come down purely to how many personnel are on the unit?

Or is the difference in rank more down to a level of responsibility that unit is seen to have? Was No. 75 Squadron a lot larger than no. 2 Squadron? Or was it just that more rested on its shoulders?

I think NATTS had a Squadron Leader as CO, they were a tiny unit in terms of both maintenance staff and aircrew, but they did fly operational as well as training flights.

Depot Level Maintenance at Wigram was done by Technical Squadron which was led by a Squadron leader (in my time S/Ldr John Hare, and then S/Ldr Ian Ronalds, who is a member here on the forum). But at Ohakea and Whenuapai when I was on those bases maintenance came under a Maintenance Wing, led by a W/C, within which had a Maintenance Support Squadron (including Safety and Surface, Machinists, Metal Workers, Planewrights, and others; and the Avionics Squadron. I'm guessing there was also a Headquarters Flight within the Wing with the C.O., W/O, Admin staff, Tech Librarian/s, Draughtsmen, etc. I am not sure if the Aircraft Technicians were part of MSS or had their own Squadron within the Wing?

You don't really think about these things too hard when you're in the mob, well, in the lower ranks anyway, you just accept all the different unit names and ranks around you.

[davidd]

Keep up the good work Dave, you're doing a grand job of keeping things together there!
David D

[tbf25o4]

You also have to be careful about the position of "leaders" as for some time there were Commanding Officers and Officers Commanding both different positions in the Hierarchy.
for example at Wigram there were CO's for PTS, CFS, Natts (all Squadron Leaders) with the OC flying Wing being a Wing Commander. Similar rank structures at Ohakea and Whenuapai

[Dave Homewood]

It's all a bit bloody confusing really.

[camtech]

From my rather faded memory, smaller flying units tended to have Sqdn Ldrs as COs and larger units, such as 40, 5 and 75 had Wing Commanders. Often, with a Sqdn Ldr as CO, the 2 i/c was also a Sqdn Ldr.
Sqdn Ldrs tended to be "two a penny" and often held supernumary roles.

Going back to aircraft captains, the Orion crew frequently had a Patrol Plane Commander, generally the Tacco, who was in charge of everything tactically on the aircraft. The pilot, who often outranked the PPC, flew the aircraft, being responsible for the purely flying aspects of the aircraft and having input to the tactics. An American idea that was used for in the RNZAF for a period.

[Barnsey]

Operational flying squadrons (75, 40, 5, 3) commanded by a Wing Commander
Training squadrons (2, 14, 42, PTS, CFS) commanded by a Squadron Leader

Obvioiusly those are a rank not a title... some get confused/misdirected by saying that a Squadron should only be commanded by a Squadron Leader...

[isc]

Is it possible that the RNZAF might tend to get a bit top heavy, particularly with the decreasing staff numbers. isc

[camtech]

Ian, it has been teetering for many years.
Back in the mid '60s there was a re-balancing of the rank structure which resulted in many positions within the establishment being up graded in rank with no additional staffing - it was known as the "April shower".

[bobajob]

The impression I have, it was to do with a pay-rise. The "government of the day" would not authorize a pay rise for the Airforce so it was decided that there would be promotions all round. This seemed to be a reasonable assumption, for as I understand it. And borne by the situation I came across while on ANZAC exchange while on 40Sqn about 1983. When I arrived W/O of the servicing squadron insisted that I would do the duties of and RAAF Cpl Electrician as that was the equivalent trade/job description. Before Avionics came along I was an Electrical Fitter by trade. I was put with an Aussie, Cpl Fish, an electrician who taught me the way the RAAF did things. Then I was on my own. The W/O explained to me the history of the "April shower" not necessarily using that term, however. My Father Harry Howard (admin 1953 to 1977) had mentioned the "April shower" several time in various discussion of the RNZAF.

[tbf25o4]

Most of the new "ranking" came about with the re-organisation of the RNZAF in 1965 when the two Groups were established and a shuffle of structures resulted in the new Wing Commander and Squadron Leader positions.

[Dave Homewood]

Wasn't there a later shuffle too where loads of Sgts became Cpls on the same pay, or something like that?

[camtech]

There was a period where virtually no-one was promoted to substantive rank - had to wait for someone ahead of you on the list to leave or die.

[Dave Homewood]

In my time they were actively encouraging everyone to leave. They closed Te Rapa, Shelly Bay and Flying Training at Ohakea in the space of a very short period, and there were too many people for the handful of bases left. They shortened the notice to leave from a year to a month. Mind you, when I opted to leave I was sat down by the C.O. with a cup of tea and chocolate biscuits and was told I was too valuable to the RNZAF and he tried to persuade me to stay. Not that this has anything to do with the thread topic, sorry all.

[isc]

Sorry I put things off track, but a few thing got aired. Dave I imagine The CO tried to tell you of the many thousands of tax payers dollars that had been spent to put you were you where, blaa,blaa. isc

[Dave Homewood]

Nope, he never mentioned that at all. He was telling me how much of a great and highly respected worker I was, how I'd achieved top marks in my course, and how impressed he was with my work and attitude,and how he saw a big future for me if I stayed. It was all very flattering but since this was the first time i'd ever set eyes on him in person after working under his command for nearly four months, the parsnips were not buttered. Plus Ohakea sucked, and I wanted to go to England.

[isc]

And he was thinking bugger now we'v got to train up another erk. isc

[camtech]

When I put my 717 in, I listed reasons why I wanted out.
- I had been told 6 months previously that I was to be posted out, but no-one would give me any hint as to where and when - not even the Base Commander, who actually asked for an answer from Wellington, but got no reply.
- I stated that I was "pissed off" with the lack of man management training given to direct entry engineering officers, having had to deal with two idiots as Maintenance Flight Commanders.
- I was dismayed at the direction Defence was heading, with labour cutbacks.
- Plus several other minor gripes.
For my sins, I was summoned to meet OC Admin, and explain myself, which I did and subsequently departed on my terms.
About a year later, I caught up with some officers, who I had known for years, and they told me that "Personnel Management Skills" where now included in the syllabus.
One small victory.

[Dave Homewood]

Nov 14, 2017 20:11:32 GMT 12 isc said:

And he was thinking bugger now we'v got to train up another erk. isc

Not really since they were trying to reduce numbers in the ranks at the time.

[fwx]

""F/L Charles Woodbine Parish, RAF 81927 took over B Flight on 8.12.42 but had a very short tenure - for some unknown reason he was posted out on 18.1.43."

- Possibly the same reason Flight Commander Geoff Rothwell was posted out, when it was pointed out that Flight Commanders and CO had to be New Zealanders."

Delicate subject, given Geoff's recent passing, but I wonder about that story, given that two weeks after he was posted out, an Englishman, from Liverpool, was posted in as B Flight Commander??