|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 24, 2017 15:07:29 GMT 12
I have a few random questions about our postwar twin-engined medium transports.
When the Bristol Freighters entered service with No. 41 Squadron, did they retain their Dakotas in service for any length of time flying alongside the Freighters as perhaps two separate Flights? Or were the Dakotas phased out quickly from the squadron?
Once the Freighters were in service and were active up in South East Asia, did the RNZAF continue to fly Dakotas up to that region? Or did Freighters immediately replace them on the SEA duties?
When phased out of service with No. 41 Squadron, did the Dakotas move over to No. 42 Squadron? Or were they put into storage? Or did they leave RNZAF service and go to NAC or elsewhere at that point?
When No. 1 Squadron reformed in 1972 with Freighters, did they ever fly overseas with them? Or did they remain a NZ only squadron?
Were the Freighters flown by No. 1 Squadron the same ones previously operated by No. 3 (BS) Squadron? And did No. 3 Sqn ever fly their Freighters on overseas flights?
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 24, 2017 15:09:47 GMT 12
Dave, a good person to ask would be Geoff White as he transitioned from Dakotas to Bristol Freighters during that period.
|
|
|
Post by vansvilla on Nov 24, 2017 20:05:39 GMT 12
Dave, there were only a limited number of Freighters and they just rotated through Sqns according to roles (Dual control)and hours between servicing. 41 Sqn could only do up to ILM servicing so it was attempted to ensure that any A/c sent to 41 Sqn could get a decent amount of flying done before rtnz for major or group servicing.
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Nov 24, 2017 20:10:40 GMT 12
When No. 1 Squadron reformed in 1972 with Freighters, did they ever fly overseas with them? Or did they remain a NZ only squadron?
Flights were made to Australia, Fiji and other Pacific Islands, usually via Norfolk Is.
Were the Freighters flown by No. 1 Squadron the same ones previously operated by No. 3 (BS) Squadron? And did No. 3 Sqn ever fly their Freighters on overseas flights?
The Freighters of 3BSS transferred directly to 1 Sqdn, and prior to that did flights as mentioned above. In 1969, I flew to Amberly, via Norfolk Is in a Freighter, then transferred to an RNZAF Hercules for the trip to Townsville for a 5 Sqdn exercise. On the return trip, Hercules from Townsville to Amberly, then Freighter Amberly to Norfolk Is, where we spent a night due to a generator failure, then back to Whenuapai.
As Vansvilla said, there was only a limited pool of aircraft, so when aircraft went through a major servicing, they often went to 3 Sqdn, or, later to 1 Sqdn for a shakedown period before being sent up to Singapore for 41 Sqdn.
|
|
|
Post by camtech on Nov 24, 2017 20:24:32 GMT 12
Re the Dakotas, a quick summary: NZ3538 to NAC 1947, restored to RNZAF 1966 NZ3542 to NAC 1947, restored to RNZAF 1965 NZ3546 to NAC 1952, restored to RNZAF 1961 NZ3547 to NAC 1953, restored to RNZAF 1966
NZ3551 and '53 served continuously with the RNZAF until retirement.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 25, 2017 0:13:58 GMT 12
Thanks guys. I did not realise there were so few Dakotas in service after No. 40 Squadron became NAC. Only six?
|
|
|
Post by planewriting on Nov 25, 2017 7:07:48 GMT 12
A few points on this thread.
For the record in NAC service: NZ3538 was ZK-AQP, NZ3542 was ZK-AQU, NZ3546 was ZK-AWQ and NZ3547 was ZK-AZM and when NZ3553 left the Air Force it became ZK-ERI joining the other four to eventually turn up in South Africa.
Strictly speaking, there were no Dakotas in the RNZAF. It is a name created within the RAF being a play on Douglas Aircraft KOmpany Transport Aircraft. One Dakota which did make it on to the N Z register was Louis Mounbatten's aircraft KN372 which became ZK-AXS with Civil Aviation Administration in 1951. Having said that though, the name Dakota was so popular that it featured regularly in pilot logbooks, every day speak and so on to the extent that the point of origin has been largely forgotten. The RNZAF aircraft were C-47 variants.
Regarding the squadron from which they were sourced, the C-47s were also in 41 Squadron and the examples above may have come from there. David Duxbury may set the record straight as to what aircraft was in which squadron when NAC was formed. The transfers to NAC went on till 1953. ZK-BQK (NZ3544) and ZK-BEU (NZ3518) were sourced as spare parts long before they entered service while NZ3549 never made it on to civvy street having been ditched in the Waitemata Harbour.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 25, 2017 8:07:08 GMT 12
I've never heard that about the RNZAF C-47's not actually being called Dakotas. I'd always assumed the RNZAF used the name simply following RAF tradition. I didn't realise it was just colloquial. But by the same token it grates with me when people refer to the RNZAF and NAC aircraft as DC-3's.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 25, 2017 8:08:44 GMT 12
The RNZAF operated 58 Dakotas in WWII, I'd assumed they'd retained around 20 after NAC was formed. Obviously not.
|
|
|
Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Nov 25, 2017 8:19:03 GMT 12
But by the same token it grates with me when people refer to the RNZAF and NAC aircraft as DC-3's. After civil conversion, the C-47s which went to NAC became DC-3s and NAC refered to them as such. If one wanted to be pedantic, the C-47 (and all other military variants) were actually military versions of the DC-3 which is what the aircraft originally was.
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Nov 25, 2017 10:01:50 GMT 12
Pretty well all the surviving C-47A models in RNZAF service at the time that NAC was set up were withdrawn from service as "obsolete" with high flying hours (some above 2,000 hours!!) and were eventually sold for scrap, although they were generally stripped of parts and components which were still of value and were compatible with the C-47Bs. No. 40 Squadron, which since October 1945 had been responsible for maintaining the internal passenger services between WP, PP and HW, as well as freight services (from about Feb 1946) across Cook Strait between PP and WB, and also the passenger/mail services in the South Pacific (to Norolk Island, Fiji, Samoa, etc). And all RNZAF personnel (flying and technical) who intended to remain in flying postwar in the civilian field were requested to transfer to either 40 Squadron, or the Sunderland Flying Boat Squadron, both of which were planned to be more-or-less handed over to NAC when their aircraft were modified to comply with ICAO requirements. No. 41 Squadron was also retained postwar, and was intended to be the permanent (and only) RNZAF transport squadron, equipped exclusively with C-47Bs. The merits of the two versions of the P&W Twin Wasp engines in use (-90B/Cs and -92s) were discussed and it was agreed that NAC would use one type, and the RNZAF the other (probably the -92 for RMZAF, as this variant was also used by the Catalinas). Also the -90B/Cs lost their high blower capability and were simplified using conversion kits from the makers, which resulted in these engines being redesignated as the -90D variant. Thus both 40 and 41 Squadrons operated about twelve aircraft each for a couple of years, with bulk of 40 Sqdn aircraft being transferred to NAC as they completed their conversions (carried out by Airwork [NZ] Ltd at Harewood), and by various Australian civilian engineering firms for the more complex DC-3D conversions (intended for the so-called "Regional" services in the South Pacific). The earlier DC-3C conversions (airliners and freighters for internal NZ use) were completed between about April and June 1947, the DC-3Ds during latter half of 1947, which enabled the disbandment of 40 Squadron in November 1947. However quite a number of C-47s were held in storage at Woodbourne and Palmerston North, awaiting passenger demand to pick up, and these were all eventually converted to civilian needs. When the Bristol Freighters and Hastings were finally ordered in 1950, it was seen as the end of the C-47 in RNZAF service (although the British name Dakota was officially adopted by the RNZAF by the early 1950s, have not ever located date for this), and it was only the Royal Tour of late 1953/early 1954 that extended the life of this aircraft type in the RNZAF. The Bristols and Hastings were fairly slow in arriving in NZ, the Bristols from about December 1951 from memory, the first Hastings in about March 1952, so these new types took some time to be bedded into service. The remaining Dakotas soldiered on in diminishing numbers until just the three intended for the Royal Tour remained - the VVIP 3551, the VIP 3553, and 3545 as the baggage aircraft; end of the tour saw the last mentioned disposed of, ending up as NZ's first DC-3 topdresser. To enable "normal services" to be maintained by No. 41 Squadron in New Zealand during this re-equipment period, its detached "A" Flight in Singapore (had been serving here since Sept 1949, although I think it only maintained about 3 - 4 Dakota aircraft at any given time) had to be withdrawn to New Zealand, which mean that quite a few years were to pass to pass before the Bristol Freighters finally moved to Singapore in 1955, at request of British government. As most board members will already know, 41 Squadron was by this time really only a half-squadron, or Flight anyway, as half of the Freighters remained at Whenuapai in a new unit known as the TSU (Transport Support Unit). The TSU was tasked with training up new Bristol crews, carrying out aircraft and crew exchanges with 41 Sqdn in Singapore, and maintaining the internal shuttle services within in NZ as well as routine service flights throughout NZ as well as to Australia, Fiji, Norfolk and Tonga, etc., as required. These same task were of course assumed in turn by 3 Squadron in 1965, and 1 Squadron in 1972. Typically during all this time there were about four Bristols each at Whenuapai and Singapore, with at least one on major inspection. David D
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Nov 25, 2017 12:20:36 GMT 12
No. 41 Squadron records for period 1947/49 are practically non-existent, but from April 1949 things look up considerably, with formation of the Research & Development Flight as part of squadron, under a certain Squadron leader S G Quill, DFC, equipped with three TBFs (NZ2503, 04, 06), and Auster J/5s NZ1706, 06. However, unlike its parent unit, the R&D Flight was ensconced at Ohakea. The main part of the squadron at Whenuapai included the following ten C-47s: NZ3543, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52. Aircraft captains at this time were: S/L A H Harding, F/Ls R A Manners, S Mills (tfd to R&D Flight), C L Siegert, E J Shaw, K B Smith, P J Warnes, J R Zainey, F/Os D O Holloway, J N Trolove, plus P1 RAG Plane and P3 I G Tillson. Pilots at Ohakea with R&D Flight were S/L S G Quill, F/Ls G S Halley, S Mills, D F Neville, J R Wenden; Most usually on TBFs, but Halley and Neville seemed to fly just the Austers initially. When "A" Flight departed for Singapore in September 1949, "B" Flight was left at Whenuapai. The first C-47s away to Singapore departed on 15th, 18th, 20th, 22nd, and 25th Sept, under captains S/L Harding, F/L S Mills, P1 R A G Plane, F/L P J Warnes, and F/O J N Trolove. Crews at this time comprised captain, 2nd Pilot, navigator, signaller, and engineer. A fifth full crew travelled aboard the first aircraft, along with another three ground officers and three NCOs; subsequent three aircraft also carried about 12 groundcrew each, to make up full party.
On 14/5/51, C-47 NZ3547 (S/L J C Murray & crew) departed Whenuapai for UK carrying crews "who are to deliver two Bristol Freighters", captains on delivery flights to be S/L Murray and F/L D M Hutton, AFC. The C-47 will be flown back to NZ by P/O I G Tillson, and it will depart on its return to NZ one week after arrival in UK. However Murray did not deliver one of the two Bristols supposedly ready in the UK, and probably captained the C-47 back home. Hutton remained in UK and another crew (F/L J A Brookes) were later sent to the UK for this job. C-47s in use at Whenuapai January 1952: NZ3543, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 52, 53. Also at this time first Bristols in use (NZ5901, 02) NZ5902 (F/L D M Hutton, AFC & crew of F/L Burrows and F/L G V Groves (initials not provided), departed Abingdon in UK on 22/11/51, flight via India and Singapore, to arrive Whenuapai 6/12/51. Arrived WP on scheduled date, total ferry flight time 82 hours, although later information stated that aircraft set off from Filton. Second Bristol (NZ5901) ferried out from UK by F/L J A Brookes with F/L H W Shilton and F/L J Goddard, arrived Whenuapai 20/12/51. First overseas RNZAF flight by a Bristol (apart from delivery) was when NZ5901 (F/L Brookes & crew) flew WP to Nausori (Fiji) via Norfolk, and return on 29/1/52, total 18 hours 45 minutes. NZ5903 arrived Whenuapai from UK in early March 1952 by P/O G M White with Sgt Nav Collins and Sgt Sig Hobdey, uneventful flight. The first Hastings also arrived at WP at end of March 1952, delivered by F/L C L Siegert, DFC. Second Hastings (NZ5802) arrived Whenuapai end of April 1952, by F/L K B Smith & crew (2nd pilot F/O B McGill, nav F/L R Watson-Walker, Sig F/L R J Howell, Eng Cpl Moore). The 4th Bristol arrived at Whenuapai in about mid-May 1952, ferried by F/O J Humphries with Sgt Nav Hunt, and Sgt Signaller Blackett. ANd finally the third Hastings (5803) turned up on 11/6/52, captain F/O G H S Tosland with 2nd P F/L Toplin, Nav F/O Mayhill, Sig F/Sgt Easton, and Engineer F/Sgt Morris.
C-47s in service with 41 Sqdn for rest of 1952 (Whenuapai only). February: NZ3544, 45, 47, 48, 50, 52, 53, plus 3551 should have arrived back in NZ by 21/2/52. March: NZ3543, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 51, 52, 53. April: NZ3543, 44 (came to grief at Wigram 10/4/52 on shuttle), 45, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, 53. May: NZ3543, 45, 46 (last used 15/5/52), 47, 50, 51, 53. June: NZ3543 (last used 19/6/52), 45, 47, 50, 51, 53. July 1952: NZ3545, 47 (last used 21/7/52), 50, 51, 53. August: NZ3545 (last used 14/8/52), 50 (not flown), 51, 53. September: NZ3550, 51, 53 (latter not flown). October: NZ3550, 51, 53. November, as for October. December, as for Nov, but 3551 not flown)
On 26/2/53, C-47 NZ3550 delivered to NAC.
On 5/6/53, C-47 NZ3551 delivered to DH's @ Rongotai by F/O R G T Isles "who are to prepare it for the Queen's Flight".
15/7/53; First mention of Hastings NZ5804 in service.
13/11/53, C-47 NZ3551 delivered from Rongotai to Ohakea (for 42 Squadron). By November 1953, 3545 and 3553 also in use with 42 Sqdn, and formed "C" Flight with the squadron, also operating as "Purple Airways".
Apologies for lack of some dates and initials, also some spelling of names questionable - lack of time!
David D
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 25, 2017 13:45:21 GMT 12
Thanks very much for clarifying this period of the postwar transports.
I had always though that the Research & Development Flight was a flight of No. 42 Squadron, rather than No. 41 Squadron. If that is the case, was no. 42 Squadron actually extant in those late 1940's and early 1950's? I'd always had the impression that they were the only squadron that have never been disbanded since forming in WWII (although I am murky as to whether there was a stand down period between the Andovers and the first batch of King Airs, did the unit take a break then and reform?)
What was involved in the conversion of the C-47 to the DC-3D then? Was it just adding carper and soft seating? When No. 40 Squadron was flying the transport routes fro 1945-47, were they configured with troop-seats still? I know even the initial paint change from roundels and serials to ZK- regos was very basic and done overnight.
|
|
|
Post by tbf25o4 on Nov 25, 2017 16:30:56 GMT 12
Dave have a look at our book "DC-3 Southern-Skies Pioneer. on page 55 there is a description of the three versions of DC-3s flown by NZNAC The DC-3C freighter version retaining the double doors on the port side and had a larger cargo carrying capacity The DC-3D initially built for regional services linking Auckland, Norfolk, Fiji, Samoa and the Cooks. This version carried a radio operator and had an astrodome fitted with a small passenger entry door opened into the passenger cabin and a small cargo door on the rear left fuselage The one true DC-3 was ZK-BKE which had been ordered pre-war by American Airlines as a DC-3-277D with doors on the starboard side the first converted C-47s carried 21 passengers.
|
|
|
Post by isc on Nov 25, 2017 20:47:33 GMT 12
I'v learned something, I always thought that the name Dakota came from the North American Indian Tribe of the same name. isc
|
|
|
Post by ErrolC on Nov 25, 2017 21:13:58 GMT 12
|
|
|
Post by planewriting on Nov 25, 2017 21:51:03 GMT 12
Thank you David Duxbury, I knew you would be the right person to set the record straight. Just to revert back to the 58 examples in the RNZAF referred to by Dave Homewood; although their serials ranged between NZ3501 and NZ3558 there were only 49 such aircraft. Slipped into the middle were nine Lockheed L-18 Lodestars serialled NZ3507 to NZ3515 inclusive.
On a lighter note I love relating this story.
Back in the mid-late 1970s the National Committee of the Aviation Historical Society had three members in each of Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. I and Brian Lockstone were Auckland based. In those days NAC's General Manager Doug Patterson had this arrangement in place that we could all meet in each of the main centres yearly. Come the Christchurch visit, Brian handed me the latest journal on board the aircraft and I duly read the story of NZ3549's demise off Herald Island when the pupil under instruction from Stan Trounce feathered the wrong engine in a single engine exercise. My reading was interrupted by the voice on the P A system, "Good morning passengers, Captain Trounce speaking, we are at 37,000 feet ..."
|
|
|
Post by kevsmith on Nov 25, 2017 22:13:11 GMT 12
Dave re your distaste (But by the same token it grates with me when people refer to the RNZAF and NAC aircraft as DC-3's) of the naming of the C47/DC3 versions I suggest you have a look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet via the attached link. It will give you the conversion details i.e. what C47 versions became DC3 versions when civilianised. I use the TCDS when there is any doubt on what can or can't be done when using the Aircraft Flight Manual. I understand that the AFM for these aircraft as approved by the FAA was produced by an insurance company in USA. www.douglasdc3.com/faa/a-669.pdfKS
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Nov 26, 2017 10:43:29 GMT 12
As soon as I became aware of the supposed "true" derivation of the "Dakota" moniker, I was deeply suspicious, as there is no doubt that Dakota was the name approved by the powers that be within the Air Ministry. However for ANYBODY to claim that this name is actually a set of initials which just happens to spell out a company-inspired phrase, is asking an awful lot of doubters like myself, particularly without the provision of any evidence to support their case. Quite frankly I think this latter-day "interpretation" is a load of bollocks, without any merit UNLESS they can provide verifiable contemporary (that is, WW2 period) documentation from either US or British government, or Douglas sources. The naming of American aircraft provided to the British military during the WW2 period has always been of some interest to me, as there seem to be some "stretches" of credibility in some cases, and some names allocated seem rather incongruous. Dakota, so far as I know, is supposed to honour (honor?) the two quite separate states of the Union, North and South; there is so far as I know no such place as Dakota. Most American-built aircraft supplied to the RAF (and by inference, British Commonwealth air forces) were named after United States geographic areas, including states and cities, or places of learning (latter for training aircraft only). However some have to be modified a bit to "fit", and others were merely borrowing the original manufacturer's name, such as Liberator, Fortress, Corsair, Hellcat, Avenger, or the "Hawk" names for Curtiss land-based fighters. Some aircraft for the FAA were allocated new names by their Lordships (Martlet for Wildcat, Gannet for Hellcat, Tarpon for Avenger), but reverted to their original names after a period of reconsideration. Another of the British names for American-supplied aircraft that stretches the envelope just a bit is "Catalina" for the famous flying boat. It was named after an island off the California coast near San Diego, which just happened to be very close to the factory that produced this type of aircraft, but unfortunately the island was named Saint Catalina, by a Spanish navigator a very long time ago who thought the island should be named after the Saint on whose day the island was "discovered" by himself; Saint Catherine. However if this name was to be used to name the flying boat, then the "Saint" prefix had to go, as the manufacturer was the Consolidated Aircraft Corporation, and British protocol of the time ruled that all aircraft names should, if at all possible, be alliterative with the manufacturer's name. Anyway, I invite a comprehensive rejection of my doubts on this topic by some kind person who might provide compelling evidence of the veracity of the incredible story of the non-coincidence of the set of letters which just happened (with a bit of tweaking) to reveal the true-meaning of the name Dakota, a subliminal message from the distant past, cunningly contrived (by whom? The manufacturer?) Dave D
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Nov 26, 2017 11:46:37 GMT 12
As to the fate of No. 42 Squadron; it was relegated to mere Flight status at the end of August 1946 (actually 31/8/46, authorised by AI 83/46), to become the General Purpose Flight (at Ohakea, but with some aircraft maintained at Rongotai), and was restored to full squadron status in March 1950. So its squadron record was broken, but a tenuous thread remained throughout its existence. Aircraft strength of the GP Flight as at 1/9/46 was two Dominies (six had been transferred to NAC the previous month), five Harvards and one Oxford (latter for D/F work). Also on strength was one Fox Moth, plus two Tiger Moths, held in store for the Forest Fire Patrol Flight (active October to February each year and based for that period at Rotorua). A third Dominie as soon added to the GP Flight strength, the three being NZ524, 526 and 531.
And yes, the Research & Development Flight was definitely a part of No. 41 Squadron rather than No. 42, but the remaining two TBF Avengers of the R@D Flight were finally allotted to Ohakea (for establishment strength of GP Flight) from Whenuapai (R&D Flight) on 16/11/49, with 2504 arriving at its new unit 24/12/49, and the laggard NZ2503 finally turning up on 6/3/50. NZ2503 was noted as being grounded at Whenuapai by 6/9/50, the problem being the Holley carburettor, and that a replacement carburettor was being ordered from the USA, but within a week it was made clear that the original carb was being "repaired" at Woodbourne. A third aircraft (NZ2527) was called up from reserve and allotted from Te Rapa to Ohakea (42 Squadron) on 7/10/52, arrived at Ohakea three days later. In period 23/6 - 27/7/53, this aircraft was at Woodbourne being fitted with a United States manufactured winch (Section reference No. 109A/N8).
The R@D Flight TBFs originally comprised Avengers 2503, 04 & 06, being allotted from Ohakea to Whenuapai on 13/4/49, but 06 was damaged beyond repair at Masterton less than a month later, on 3/5/49. These three aircraft had been together for some time, being originally based at Ardmore with the CFE in 1946 to supply drogue towing services to the RNZAF (mostly for work with fighter pilots at Ardmore, training up for service in Japan, plus RNZN and NZ Army as required), and they were allotted from Ardmore to Ohakea on 29/3/46, reason being that Ardmore was being closed down and CFE had been moved to Ohakea (latter was designated as a permanent station, Ardmore was not).
|
|