Question regarding the DouglasDakotas and Bristol Freighters

[Dave Homewood]

Nov 26, 2017 10:43:29 GMT 12 davidd said:

Dakota, so far as I know, is supposed to honour (honor?) the two quite separate states of the Union, North and South; there is so far as I know no such place as Dakota.

Could it be actually named after the Dakota Nation? The Native American tribe of the Dakota people? Like the Chinook, Iroquois, Sioux, Apache, etc. Just a thought.

[Dave Homewood]

Nov 26, 2017 11:46:37 GMT 12 davidd said:

As to the fate of No. 42 Squadron; it was relegated to mere Flight status at the end of August 1946 (actually 31/8/46, authorised by AI 83/46), to become the General Purpose Flight (at Ohakea, but with some aircraft maintained at Rongotai), and was restored to full squadron status in March 1950. So its squadron record was broken, but a tenuous thread remained throughout its existence. Aircraft strength of the GP Flight as at 1/9/46 was two Dominies (six had been transferred to NAC the previous month), five Harvards and one Oxford (latter for D/F work). Also on strength was one Fox Moth, plus two Tiger Moths, held in store for the Forest Fire Patrol Flight (active October to February each year and based for that period at Rotorua). A third Dominie as soon added to the GP Flight strength, the three being NZ524, 526 and 531.

Very interesting. So we have no numbered squadrons with a continuous service. Sad. The other unit closest to continuous service then would be No. 5 Squadron which took a short break while its crews converted to Catalinas and they reformed as No. 6 Squadron, with No. 5 Squadron reforming later.

Regarding No. 42 Squadron becoming the GPF, that many aircraft on a unit now would easily constitute a squadron strength I'd think. It's nearly twice the aeroplanes on strength that the squadron operates now.

And yes, the Research & Development Flight was definitely a part of No. 41 Squadron rather than No. 42, but the remaining two TBF Avengers of the R@D Flight were finally allotted to Ohakea (for establishment strength of GP Flight) from Whenuapai (R&D Flight) on 16/11/49, with 2504 arriving at its new unit 24/12/49, and the laggard NZ2503 finally turning up on 6/3/50. NZ2503 was noted as being grounded at Whenuapai by 6/9/50, the problem being the Holley carburettor, and that a replacement carburettor was being ordered from the USA, but within a week it was made clear that the original carb was being "repaired" at Woodbourne. A third aircraft (NZ2527) was called up from reserve and allotted from Te Rapa to Ohakea (42 Squadron) on 7/10/52, arrived at Ohakea three days later. In period 23/6 - 27/7/53, this aircraft was at Woodbourne being fitted with a United States manufactured winch (Section reference No. 109A/N8).

The R@D Flight TBFs originally comprised Avengers 2503, 04 & 06, being allotted from Ohakea to Whenuapai on 13/4/49, but 06 was damaged beyond repair at Masterton less than a month later, on 3/5/49. These three aircraft had been together for some time, being originally based at Ardmore with the CFE in 1946 to supply drogue towing services to the RNZAF (mostly for work with fighter pilots at Ardmore, training up for service in Japan, plus RNZN and NZ Army as required), and they were allotted from Ardmore to Ohakea on 29/3/46, reason being that Ardmore was being closed down and CFE had been moved to Ohakea (latter was designated as a permanent station, Ardmore was not).

It just shows, there is always more to learn. I think No. 41 Squadron was possibly one of our most important RNZAF squadrons from 1945 to the 1960's but they are all but forgotten. They still have annual reunions though. I'd love to attend one and get a load of interviews sometime.

[ErrolC]

Named by the Brits, who used counties/districts for transports, in theory - they seem to have had very few!

[nuuumannn]

Dakota, so far as I know, is supposed to honour (honor?) the two quite separate states of the Union, North and South; there is so far as I know no such place as Dakota. Most American-built aircraft supplied to the RAF (and by inference, British Commonwealth air forces) were named after United States geographic areas, including states and cities, or places of learning (latter for training aircraft only).

Pretty much, David. This from the book Names With Wings by Gordon Wansborough-White - the following is text from a memo sent by the Ministry of Aircraft Production in 1939(? - undated, but chapter heading is 1939 to 1946) to members of the SBAC;

"American built transports should not necessarily be named after a county or district of the British Empire, but would preferably be named after a district or state of the United States of America."

Further into the book in the index we have the following under Dakota: "American Indian[Hmm, we'll ignore that] Tribe and District"

Regarding the RNZAF choice of names for its aeroplanes, was there an official document outlining the preference for particular names for aeroplanes, for example the Dominie for the DH.89 Dragon Rapide? I know Dominie was the RAF name (from schoolmaster - Education), but it seems to have stuck here in New Zealand for the type in general after the RNZAF received Dominies, even though its first were civil Rapides impressed into service, so was there such a document in the RNZAF?

[markrogers]

There was one RNZAF C-47A that was initially kept by NAC as a spares source, but was later refurbished and flown by NAC. Later it went on to Mount Cook Airlines and after that was in a film called "Race to the Yankee Zepyhr" and sunk in a lake. So not all the C-47As were scrapped and this one was the only C-47A to survive out of all the C-47As that were scrapped after the war.

[davidd]

Markrogers,
That would be NZ3518, which indeed survived, but only because it was "repurposed" after WW2 as an instructional airframe, at Wigram, for the E&W School, and remained there for many years before NAC decided to purchase it. This seems to have been because locally procurable C-47 types were getting very scarce on the ground, and this one was presumably still in reasonably fair order. The rest is history, as you say. It was another C-47 which was knocked around by high winds at one stage (late 1940s or early 50s, and when lacking engines from memory) and was blown backwards across the aerodrome, ending up in a hedge on far side of field.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

I looked at the list of RAF transports from history and their names:

Here are the ones that match the county or region idea
de Havilland Devon = English county
Handley Page Harrow = a London borough, a famous school, or an agricultural tool (I guess the London borough may squeeze in here)

These ones are named after cities and towns
Avro York = city
Handley Page Hastings = city
Avro/Hawker Siddely Andover = city
Blackburn Beverley = Yorkshire town
Bristol Bombay = Indian city

Armstrong Whitworth Argosy = merchant ship
Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle = former island in Galapogas Islands/Port in Falkland Islands/former communune in Normany/Dukedom
Bristol Freighter = freighter
Avro Anson = ?? There was a Baron of Anson, maybe related to the Duke of Albemarle in some naming convention?
Fairchild Argus = son of Zeus in Greek mythology
Airbus A400M Atlas = another character from Greek mythology
Beagle Bassett = type of dog
Bristol Buckingham = town, or palace
Handley Page Halifax = city
Avro Lancastrian = bastardisation of Lancaster, which is a city
Short Stirling = Scottish city
Short Sunderland = English city
Vickers Valletta = Maltese capital city and harbour
Vickers Warwick = town
Vickers Wellington = Duke/town/NZ capital
Consolidated Coronado = a resort island off California's coast (just like Catalina Island)

These are after an island or other geographical name
Vickers Valentia = Irish island
Bristol Britannia = Latin name for Britain, mythical female personification of Britain
Lockheed Hudson = US river and bay

And these ones seem random
Handley Page Clive = historical person in British Raj India
DH84 Dragon = mythical creature
DH86 Express = fast service
DH89/Hawker Siddeley Dominie = a schoolmaster, or clergyman
DH Flamingo - a bird
Airspeed Envoy = a messenger, diplomat or representative
Beechcraft Expeditor = someone who facilitates a process
Boeing Globemaster = something that travels the globe
Lockheed Hercules = another figure from mythology
DH Heron = bird
Consolidated Liberator = someone who liberates
Lockheed Lodestar = a star used in navigation
Martin Mariner = someone who works at sea
Scottish Aviation Pioneer and Twin Pioneer = someone who leads the way
Douglas Skymaster = company name
Beech Traveller = someone who travels
Lockheed Tristar = three stars?
Vickers Vernon = ?
Vickers Victoria = Queen
Vickers Viking = Norse
Airbus Voyager = something that takes long trips

[ErrolC]

From 1939 (maybe earlier) to 1946, Dave.
York is a County (too).
And if they were first ordered as bombers or whatever, their name comes from that. Flying boats were coastal cities/towns, maritime patrol explorers etc - not often renamed with role changes.

[Dave Homewood]

Yorkshire is the county, York is the city.

Just like Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Cambridgeshire, etc, are all counties around their major city.

[ErrolC]

I listen to too many history podcasts, it used to be 'the County of York'. The Air Ministry (who issued the notice) were quite happy to fudge things (or straight out not follow their own rules) so they sound better or just because someone important felt like it (or thought that Yorkshiremen were ticked off that Lancaster was getting all the fame).

The simple explanation is that 'Douglas Dakota' sounds better than 'Douglas Delaware', there little need to find additional/alternative origins IMO.

[davidd]

Dave, the Anson was named after the famous RN admiral of several centuries past (one of the King George V class battleships was named after him too), and the Wellington bomber was named (so far as I know) after the "Iron Duke". The Hudson was named after the famous British Navigator, after whom Hudson Bay (and the famous company) was named.

When it came to allocating names to aircraft of the RAF in particular, the rules (and believe me there were MANY versions of the rules over time), including some which almost brought the whole system into disrepute. When it came to geographical names, it was frequently noted that these MUST be drawn from those of "the United Kingdom, including the British Empire", so aircraft designed specifically for service in the "hot" parts of the globe (climatic, not warfare, although these sometimes coincided) were frequently christened with names from such areas (Singapore, Bombay, Rangoon, Valentia, etc.) Land-based aircraft designed for service in the hot countries of the "General Purpose" type, as well as classic "Army Co-op" designs, were named in honour of famous generals of the past, not only British (Gordon, Clive, etc), but frequently after classical generals such as Lysander, Hector, etc, much like the Royal Navy honoured these heroes of old in naming their ships. RAF Flying boats were to be named after famous (and occasionally not-so-famous) seaports of the British Empire, and when twin-engine landplanes were introduced for maritime duties, the rule was to allocate names of famous British explorers, admirals of the Navy, etc. As had been the case during the inter-war period, these rules have been continually modified, and upgraded, and the odd aircraft which never had an official name (as we usually understand that concept) popped up from time to time, with the Vickers (BAC) VC-10 being probably the most famous post-war example. The Fairey IIIF was probably the best-known and most-produced interwar type without a proper name, others being the WW1-vintage Avro 505K and 504N, as well as the Bristol F.2B, usually known as the Bristol Fighter, or Brisfit. Finally, we have to acknowledge the vintage DH 9A, another hardy survivor from WW1 days which continued to serve in the RAF until about 1930 - this type was also known as "Ninac" from phonetic R/T spelling out of the designation.
David D

[ErrolC]

Nov 27, 2017 10:44:21 GMT 12 davidd said:

Dave, the Anson was named after the famous RN admiral of several centuries past (one of the King George V class battleships was named after him too), and the Wellington bomber was named (so far as I know) after the "Iron Duke". The Hudson was named after the famous British Navigator, after whom Hudson Bay (and the famous company) was named.

When it came to allocating names to aircraft of the RAF in particular, the rules (and believe me there were MANY versions of the rules over time), including some which almost brought the whole system into disrepute. When it came to geographical names, it was frequently noted that these MUST be drawn from those of "the United Kingdom, including the British Empire", ...

Bombers were cities and towns (don't ask where Mosquito is!). There are several candidates around the Empire with the same name as the Duke, I'm sure everyone thought it was a fine name. They just happened to decide to use 'Wellington' on a type they thought NZ might buy by pure coincidence I'm sure. Just like the first real jet bomber was called Canberra.

[shorty]

Army C0-0p types were after characters from Greek mythology, Hardy, Audax, Lysander, Hector Hotspur, Hengist et al, Navy types after marine life ,Swordfish,Albacore (a type of tuna),Barracuda, Seamew etc and Hawker aircraft after violent winds, Hurricane, Typhoon,Tempest, Tornado, Fury etc.
With aero engines Rolls named their piston engines after birds of prey, Eagle,Goshawk,Merlin etc whereas their jet engines were after rivers (comparing the flow of water with the flow of air through a jet. Bristol used Greek mythology again, (Pegasus, Perseus, Mercury, Hercules. Centaurus and so forth.) Armstrong Sydelley went with big cats (jaguar. Panther and so forth)
Many other similar themes abound (i.e Grumman and their "cats"

[Dave Homewood]

Where does the Hawker Hind and Hart fit in? Both are types of deer, and both were bombers. Were they Hawker-chosen names?

Another well known RAF type with no name is the BAe 146. In airline service they were dubbed the Whisper Jet, but I don't think the RAF used that on its examples, did it?

[davidd]

RAF light bombers (mostly single-engine day bombers) of the interwar era were named after terrestrial quadruped mammals, thus Blackburn Bison (mostly regarded as a FAA a/c, but RAF had a few), Fairy Fawn and Fox, Hawker Hart and Hind, Vickers Vildebeest (which was designed as a conventional level bomber as well as a torpedo carrier) and sundry others. However by mid-1930s new designs of this class of aircraft seem to have been given type names commemorating famous battles, or generals, such as the Fairey Battle (which is actually a town built on the site of the Battle of Hastings, thus the rather cryptic name!). Then there was the Blenheim (after the seat of the Duke of Marlborough, who was victor in that battle in Germany a very long time ago), and sundry others such as the Wellington (already mentioned). However I do not presently have access to the excellent reference book mentioned earlier in this thread by Grant (author Gordon Wansborough-White) so will cease trying to remember any more obscure facts so as to not cause any more confusion! The Hawker Henley (light bomber) was presumably named after the town of that name on the Thames, which seems to be going against the flow of my argument, unfortunately for me, so I will cease this particular thread right now! However an official version of the origin of the name "Vincent" (for the GP version of the Vildebeest) I found to be woefully deficient and quite unconvincing. This went on about a NAVAL battle fought off Cape St Vincent or some-such, so why that name (a headland) should have been allocated to a GP aeroplane (which should have been named after a General, British or classical) is anybody's guess. Nevertheless this book is a marvellous wade through all sorts of strange Imperial British stuff, and includes a history of the special committee set up to dream up the (sometimes impractical) rules (were they all old but high ranking ex-RAF officers?), and some of the decisions they came to can only cause oneself to shake your head in bewilderment. Mind you, the Americans have probably become the champions of even greater nonsense for some of the names and designations they have bestowed on some of their military aircraft since WW2, most of that in the last 30 or 40 years. Naturally some of the more contentious ones resulted in teams of lawyers lining up on the opposing sides to thrash it out - I imagine that said lawyers took this very seriously, but might have wondered how the government got itself into this situation in the first place.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

This is such a cool image of four No. 41 Squadron Dakotas in 1949

ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE6623694&dps_custom_att_1=emu

[davidd]

Dave,
This photo (and no doubt many others) was probably one taken on 23rd January 1950, when it is recorded (41 Sqdn ORB) that "Three squadron C-47s participated in the Fly Past in the Auckland Empire Games Carnival. The excellent formation flying was favourably commented on by public and press alike. Captains were Wing Commander T J Mclean de Lange, DFC, OC Administrative Wing at Whenuapai, F/L G S Halley DFC, and F/L C J Fraser." Needless to say, a lot of practice formation work was carried out over the weeks prior to this date, as these pilots were not normally required to undertake this sort of precision work during route flying around NZ or to the Pacific Islands.

However another well-known formation outing by C-47s of the squadron at about this time was less than a year earlier, during period 18 - 20 March 1949, when six were airborne during the Annual Pageant of the Royal New Zealand Aero Club, held this year at Mangere, Auckland. The April 1949 issue of NZ Flying magazine included several shots of these aircraft cruising about in various arrangements of vics, and included some supply dropping to add a bit of spice. No crew members were named. Other aircraft present included the genuine V-1 "Doodle Bug", supposedly captured in France; the first modern glider to be seen in New Zealand (the "Yellow Witch", an Olympia sailplane from Australia, no registration, Mr Arthur Hardinge), and the first Chrislea Super Ace (ZK-ASI) to arrive in this country. Also present were three Mosquitos and three Harvards, plus about 60 aero club craft. Prominent visitors included Sir Keith Park, the CAS (AVM Arther de T Nevill), plus various other worthies from near and far.

I have an idea that 42 Squadron may have managed to get all six of their C-47s (by now known as Dakotas) airborne and cruising in the vicinity of Ohakea in late 1960s or in the period up till they were all withdrawn and sold in 1977.

David D

[baz62]

Nov 30, 2017 10:01:06 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

This is such a cool image of four No. 41 Squadron Dakotas in 1949

Yes it is isn't it. So are they all bare metal apart from the stripe on the fuselage?

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, bare metal. I think a lot of polishing went on for the erks in the Interim Air Force.

[NZ1009]

And one from the other side: