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Post by Dave Homewood on May 14, 2018 23:48:40 GMT 12
By the way, it's rather odd how you go through life never seeing any more than just the one photo of the Tonga P-40's and suddenly two more show up randomly within a week! What are the odds?
Both these shots I found while NOT looking specifically for 15 Squadron Tonga P-40's, I was actually looking for RNZAF P-40 photos in general and specifically for ones at home in NZ, when these US marked ones have popped up - and assuming they were both unrelated anomalies of the search engine I opened them both out of mere idle curiosity, only to find to my surprise in their captions what they really are. It's like some of the squadron members up there in the Great Parade Ground In The Sky are leading me to them. I hope they keep them coming!
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Post by ErrolC on May 15, 2018 7:31:59 GMT 12
Also thanks Chris for embedding the photo here. I have never worked out how that's done. Flickr is a mystery to me, it claims i have two accounts with them, neither of which did I ever sign up for nor will it let me into either. Bloody daft site. In this case the user disabled embedding, so the simple approach was not available. With luck Smugmug will purge or otherwise make irrelevant unused log-ins.
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Post by fwx on May 15, 2018 9:56:48 GMT 12
No worries Dave, a bit of reverse-engineering via the Chrome 'Inspect' function, and a bit of trial and error! I use Flickr, and you are right, their security procedures drive me nuts, and have likewise ended me up somehow with two Flickr a/cs ... under the same login?? ... on any given day they will usually let me into one of them ...
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Post by noooby on May 15, 2018 11:30:23 GMT 12
I'm tryin gto track down the aircraft in the background by its tail number.
I thought it was 41-19924 but that isn't it. 41-19924 was a P-40F.
So I played with the 9's and thought maybe one or both were 8's.
41-18824 was a Helldiver. 41-18924 was a Stinson. 41-19824 was a P-40F.
So I guess it is 41-18924. My list has the following for that batch of aircraft:
18922 W/o 6 Feb 1942 at Terlingua, TX 18923 w/o 4 May 1942 at Aiken Airport, SC 18925 conv to L-1C; w/o 17 Mar 1942 at Fort Jackson, SC 18926 w/o 12 Nov 1942 at Wickenburg, AZ
Yep, nothing for our (possible) aircraft! Isn't it always the way.
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Post by davidd on May 15, 2018 12:55:27 GMT 12
Yep noooby, always the same! David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 15, 2018 13:45:34 GMT 12
Are you sure that is not 119924 on that Stinson's tail?
Flickr users - is there any way to contact the chap who posted the photos and see if he a) can provide a larger scan, and b) if he has any others related to that airfield or the aeroplane or other Tonga P-40's?
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Post by angelsonefive on May 15, 2018 13:59:01 GMT 12
I found a reference to Stinson L-1 41-18924 in the Aviation Archaeology site for air accidents:
05/11/1942 Taxiing accident, Cat.3 damage. Unit 28th AAF Glider Training Detachment, Lamesa Field, Lamesa, Texas. Pilot Martin R.Young.
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Post by ErrolC on May 15, 2018 14:06:06 GMT 12
I did leave a comment earlier. Given it was uploaded some years ago, I doubt they have much more to hand (even though the have been using they account recently).
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 15, 2018 14:21:47 GMT 12
It would still be nice to make contact and see if a larger scan is possible in case more details are revealed.
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Post by noooby on May 16, 2018 2:03:53 GMT 12
Are you sure that is not 119924 on that Stinson's tail? Flickr users - is there any way to contact the chap who posted the photos and see if he a) can provide a larger scan, and b) if he has any others related to that airfield or the aeroplane or other Tonga P-40's? Dave, see my post above. According to the list I have, 119924 (full code 41-19924) was a P-40F. But I'll recheck. Did you go through his Flickr page? Lots of good photos in there. I notice the zoomed out photo of the P-40 shows a Cessna Bobcat. Were they used in the Pacific? There is also someone behind the P-40 in white overalls/flying suit.
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Post by angelsonefive on May 16, 2018 13:12:19 GMT 12
"...Cessna Bobcat. Were they used in the Pacific? "
At least one was.
Cessna UC-78 Bobcat 42-58175 crashed in the sea near No.2 Prov. AB ( Air base ? Army base ? ) while landing, Guadalcanal, 21 July 1943. Pilot missing.
From Aviation Archaeology USAAF Overseas Losses July 1943
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Post by davidd on May 16, 2018 18:23:31 GMT 12
Two UC-78s were shipped to NZ from Fiji in about 1948, apparently abandoned by USAAF. These were imported by D A (Doug) Greig of Air Services (NZ) Ltd, Mangere, who had intentions of flying them (ZK-ARS and ART from memory?) One may have flown in NZ but both were soon discovered to be not worth repairing (rot in wooden wing spars, left outside in rain for too long?), so were scrapped. Probably the reason the Americans left them behind in the first place! I think that UC-78s could be found on just about any USAAF field in WW2, usually after the fighting had moved further away. Dave D
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Post by davidd on May 16, 2018 18:51:08 GMT 12
A further check shows that these two Cessnas were in fact imported by the Civil Aviation Branch of Air Department, in early 1948, probably thought they had got a bargain, but no! They had purchased two complete lemons, and DHNZ provided a detailed account of the repairs necessary to get 42-58177 (ARS) airworthy, including a complete set of mainplanes. Doug Greig's company (Air Services NZ Ltd) surveyed ART (42-58176) and found this to be in even worse state than ARS, so decision reluctantly made to abandon the whole project, and put them up for tender. Both were advertised for sale in November 1948 by WARB, ARS at Rongotai and ART at Mangere, plus one spare engine (Jacobs L-4MB 225 HP radials). Due to a general lack of interest (surprise, surprise!) WARB was able to report (February 1949) that Air Services had tendered just 100 pounds for the pair of aircraft, and the spare engine, and CAB recommended to WARB that they accept the offer. In July 1950 Air Services contacted CAB and advised that both Cessnas had been scrapped. The two registrations were cancelled as from 9/10/50. It seems that the CAB had thought these two Cessnas would be ideal for their purposes, whizzing around NZ, but soon they had a couple of Miles Geminis to do this same work, each powered by a couple of 90 HP engines (Cirrus Minors) - definitely a lot less grunty than the Cessnas!
And who spotted that all three UC-78s as listed above have sequential serial numbers?
David D
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 16, 2018 23:26:15 GMT 12
Adding to the above: Bobcat ZK-ARS was test flown at Mangere 15Mar48, then flown Mangere-Paraparaumu-Rongotai by Arthur Hewitt for overhaul at DH. However on inspection at Rongotai (and presumably after a report from the white-and-shaking pilot) this did not proceed, and the aircraft was condemned.
So ZK-ARS was scrapped at Rongotai, ART at Mangere.
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Post by noooby on May 17, 2018 7:13:09 GMT 12
Didn't help that the Bobcat had a one piece spar from tip to tip.
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Post by noooby on May 17, 2018 7:16:24 GMT 12
58175 ran out of fuel and crashed into sea during landing off Guadalcanal Jul 21, 1943. MACR 326. Pilot killed. 58176 (MSN 3668) to New Zealand Civil Aviation Dept Apr 1948 as ZK-ARS 58177 (MSN 3669) to New Zealand Civil Aviation Dept Apr 1948 as ZK-ART
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Post by davidd on May 17, 2018 9:19:48 GMT 12
Nooby, There was no Civil Aviation Dept in 1948, it was then called the Civil Aviation Branch (CAB) of Air Department as mentioned earlier, later changed (early 1950s) to the Civil Aviation Administration (CAA), and then to Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) about 1958, and it finally became the Civil Aviation Division (CAD) of the new Ministry of Transport (MOT) in 1964. It seemed that these constant changes were compulsory every few years (may have had something to do with changes of government), but you have to try and keep up with them! Look at the shambles suffered in recent years with Social Welfare, Education, Forests/Agriculture/Fishing, etc., and the rise of monstrous super ministries (MOT was an early version of these). Of course there were further redesignations within the civil aviation sphere in the 1990s, but these hardly concerned NZ's two unfortunate Bobcats! David D
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Post by angelsonefive on May 17, 2018 9:53:12 GMT 12
I just hope whoever was responsible for this expensive fiasco got a good kick in the ARS for it.
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Post by davidd on May 17, 2018 23:46:17 GMT 12
Yes, it would seem that the CAB were rather naïve in assuming that these two aircraft were in reasonable condition, and perhaps they should have enquired of the RNZAF of their wartime experiences in operating all-wood aircraft in the Fiji islands (mainly the DH 89 Rapides and Dominies, and DH 86.) However as I have never seen the documentation on the supposed condition of the two UC-78s which I presume the CAB people were relying on, so it might be unfair to hammer them too hard for their attempt to obtain a couple of "modern" light twins, and we don't know what they paid for them either. You would have thought that the precaution of despatching a competent engineer from NZ to inspect them (or even get a resident RNZAF engineer officer to give his assessment of their condition) before agreeing to accept the Cessnas and arranging their shipment to New Zealand. David D
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 18, 2018 19:28:10 GMT 12
I could never understand why they bought the 'Useless 78s' when, at that time, NZ airfields were awash with Oxfords/Consuls and Ansons and there would have been no shortage of people already trained to service them and to fly them.
The mind of a bureaucrat is indeed a strange and mysterious thing that passeth all understanding!
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