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Post by ErrolC on Aug 23, 2018 15:10:45 GMT 12
How big a chopper can that heli pad take? From the ship specs in the pdf Helicopter deck designed for Super Puma (9,3 tons). Helideck designed and equipped in accordance with relevant authorities from Norway, Denmark, United Kingdom and Netherland. Seasprie max takeoff is 6120kg The deck is almost enough for an NH90. Hopefully if we had built to order we would have spec'd to have NH90s land on. So buying secondhand lost us a bit of flexibility (with allies as well). How about Seahawks?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 23, 2018 18:03:46 GMT 12
Just wondering, do Navy pilots fly the NH90's?
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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 23, 2018 18:24:23 GMT 12
Just wondering, do Navy pilots fly the NH90's? Not to my knowledge... just the SeaSprite SH-2G(I)
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Post by macnz on Aug 23, 2018 18:51:46 GMT 12
The ROV / survey vessel Edda Fonn - overall length of 84.7m, a breadth of 18m and a 9.1m moulded depth. It has a registered tonnage of 4,505gt and registers a deadweight of 2,354t. It has a deck area of 700m², a 41m cargo deck length and a capacity of 800t. The vessel has sufficient storage for 1,113m³ of marine oil, 428.1m³ of fresh water and 1,883.1m³ of ballast water. The accommodation includes 41 cabins with 66 beds. DECK EQUIPMENT The deck equipment includes two Effer 17tm cranes that can carry out a 1.62t lift at 10.29m and a Heila 15tm provision crane that can lift 1.1t at 14.76m. It has a 10t Karmøy tugger winch and a Hydramarine 1.1t 2,500m wire transponder winch. There are two anchor windlass/mooring winches forward and two Karmøy capstans aft. In order to maintain stability there are three anti-rolling tanks and an automatic / manual active heel system with a capacity of 2,000m³/h. The main propulsion is by a diesel electric propulsion plant. There are four 1,820kW diesel powered generator sets giving an output of 7,680kW / 10,445bhp. It provides 690V at 60Hz at a rotary speed of 1,800rpm. There is also a 388kW harbour generator with a 690V / 60Hz output at a rotary speed of 1,800rpm and a 99kW emergency generator producing 690V / 60Hz at 1,800rpm. The Edda Fonn is driven by two AC asynchronous water-cooled motors each rating 2,200kW (2,992bhp) at 1,192.5rpm. The vessel is equipped with two diesel-electric driven Steerprop ST-35 azimuth propellers. The propellers have a diameter of 3m. There are also two electrically-driven tunnel thrusters located in the bow with an output of approx. 1,150kW each. In addition, there is a super-silent type and a retractable thruster with an output of 1,350kW. This gives a maximum speed of 15.5 knots at 30t/day or, for economy, 13 knots at 14t/day. It uses 6t/day for DP-operations (dependent on weather). More detail on vessel: www.ship-technology.com/projects/edda/
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flymac
Pilot Officer
Posts: 45
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Post by flymac on Aug 24, 2018 13:11:09 GMT 12
I believe this ship was built in 2003, so will it be considered half life or less? This suggests we may get 20 years use out of this hull. It appears to have only one Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat whereas all our other Navy vessels carry 2 Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats. So I presume some modifications on the Starboard side to carry another? I can see this vessel doing a lot of the offshore island support work such as Auckland Islands and Kermadecs, currently done by the OPVs.
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Post by gibbo on Aug 24, 2018 22:13:37 GMT 12
I believe this ship was built in 2003, so will it be considered half life or less? This suggests we may get 20 years use out of this hull. It appears to have only one Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat whereas all our other Navy vessels carry 2 Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats. So I presume some modifications on the Starboard side to carry another? I can see this vessel doing a lot of the offshore island support work such as Auckland Islands and Kermadecs, currently done by the OPVs. Yes suspect you're right about 20-25 years would be my pick, and it'll be a fairly busy vessel in that time. Beside the obvious military spec comms etc potential mods to be done could be 2 x RHIBs; a small arms armoury; HMG's (manual or preferably mini-typhoon)... and lots of grey paint! She'll be good for re-supply where there is wharf access but without the ability to embark a chopper (versus just operate one) it can't take one with it. For many of the island resupply jobs (eg: Raoul Island) a chopper is essential. A little nervous about the age but these are generally robust vessels, main concern is likely to be the state of the electrics, hydraulics, mechanical etc. Just hope they've done their homework & that they spec the work required properly.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2018 10:03:54 GMT 12
Well they have obviously not done their homework on the frigate upgrade with it blowing out by an 'unforeseen' extra $150 million, necessitating the purchase of this bargain basement version of what they actually wanted. Honestly we cannot really trust any Navy purchase, they seem to be completely incompetent. And why they are spending the cost of a new frigate to upgrade our old ones with a couple of weapons I'll never know. The ships are totally worthless to this country, a huge money hole that could be spent on real defence assets.
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Post by phil on Aug 25, 2018 10:13:17 GMT 12
The Frigates are far from totally worthless to NZ. They play a major part in our country's contribution to the FPDA, as well as counter piracy operations etc. To expect an island nation which relies on the security of her sea lines of communication to have no surface combat capability is pretty short sighted.
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Post by phil on Aug 25, 2018 10:15:15 GMT 12
Just wondering, do Navy pilots fly the NH90's? There's been a Navy LTCDR on 3SQN for a while, but he might be a QHI on A109s.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2018 10:48:32 GMT 12
The Frigates are far from totally worthless to NZ. They play a major part in our country's contribution to the FPDA, as well as counter piracy operations etc. How many pirates have they caught in our waters? Or that were affecting our sovereignty? I agree. I did not say we do not need the capability. I think the frigates are the wrong ships for the role.
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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 25, 2018 12:56:43 GMT 12
It's not just about our sovereign waters, its also about our areas of interest... and being an island nation we rely on trade... and we have to keep those sea lanes open and pirate-free...
In our actual sovereign waters, the main issue is illegal fishing... but doing the pirate patrols around the world, is doing our part in keeping those sea lanes open which "We do Use" for trade. It is also helping stop the drug trafficking as well... which we know goes towards the funding of terrorism...
We are an island nation that relies on trade and that the sea lanes remain open. And it relies on protecting our resources, in our EEZ and general area of influence, that it is not being stripped of those resources... if they ever do find oil in the southern basin... it will be another resource that needs protecting and as well as protecting the other resources and the environment from each other...
As the planet population continues to grow and the planets limited resources, food, energy, fresh water, they will need protecting...
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Post by vultee43 on Sept 11, 2018 21:22:40 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 11, 2018 22:43:19 GMT 12
Just wait till they get it and find out they have been duped, it's not a warship!
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Post by nighthawknz on Sept 12, 2018 17:33:42 GMT 12
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Post by gibbo on Oct 20, 2018 7:15:17 GMT 12
I believe this ship was built in 2003, so will it be considered half life or less? This suggests we may get 20 years use out of this hull. It appears to have only one Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat whereas all our other Navy vessels carry 2 Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats. So I presume some modifications on the Starboard side to carry another? I can see this vessel doing a lot of the offshore island support work such as Auckland Islands and Kermadecs, currently done by the OPVs. Yes suspect you're right about 20-25 years would be my pick, and it'll be a fairly busy vessel in that time. Beside the obvious military spec comms etc potential mods to be done could be 2 x RHIBs; a small arms armoury; HMG's (manual or preferably mini-typhoon)... and lots of grey paint! She'll be good for re-supply where there is wharf access but without the ability to embark a chopper (versus just operate one) it can't take one with it. For many of the island resupply jobs (eg: Raoul Island) a chopper is essential. A little nervous about the age but these are generally robust vessels, main concern is likely to be the state of the electrics, hydraulics, mechanical etc. Just hope they've done their homework & that they spec the work required properly. There's now an article online that is also in the latest Navy Today magazine. It is very interesting & describes the planned mod's & has some useful images. They're talking it up but it does sound like it's in good nick!: medium.com/@nzdefenceforce/the-journey-to-find-our-new-dive-and-hydrographic-vessel-b03446f29e3f
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 20, 2018 23:18:42 GMT 12
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Post by pjw4118 on Oct 21, 2018 14:58:25 GMT 12
It looks like Buzz Lightyears design. And no you cant trust the Navy ( or Army for that matter ) to select the right kit. How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week . Even the Army's lastest bang bang doesnt go bang , rather embarrassing if you pulled the trigger. I said years ago ( nobody listened ) that our Navy should be buying US Coast Guard vessels , even second hand . Long range , good crew facilities , ocean going ( think Alaskan and Aleutian waters ) have a pop gun and are IRB capable . Nobody will listen as Defence think that they always need big ticket items . Yet a Hiluk with a bunch of 50 cals in the tray seem to hit the spot in many places and the hard tipped $5000 rounds that are fired against them just go right through.So then you need a laser guided $2 million missile to do the job ,and I think thats how the Defence industry works . So never ask them how to crack an egg.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 21, 2018 17:39:56 GMT 12
How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week That is a harsh assessment. My understanding is that the crews who begin flying the 787 have all undergone an intensive conversion training course to type, which involved a lot of simulator work, book learning and other work including flying before they get to take on the airline's new pride and joy. It is of course times so they are fully trained up and ready to go the same week the new aircraft arrives, and they probably have several crew members who have experience on the type already who've been brought in from other airlines. Plus all those pilots are used to big airliners with glass cockpits that have similar systems so it is not a huge stretch. The conversion from Iroquois to NH90 however was a massive leap for the pilots, crews and groundcrews in technology and philosophy. Some of them had experience through exchanges with Germany but they would then have to train up all the other existing crews, as well as new crews coming through, on the job. Plus the NH90 was not as long a transition into service as people seem to think. I don't think it was any longer then say the conversion of No. 5 Squadron from Sunderlands to Orions, an equally huge leap. And when you remember we have limited numbers and a limited budget, plus the eyes of the country on them, all care must be taken to do the transition well and get it right. I think that they did very well. Another recent fleet upgrade that went extremely well was the Airtrainers to Texans. Another massive leap in technology and it seemed to go without a hitch. Realistically only one student course slot was lost I think, as it was filled by instructors converting to the new type.
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Post by saratoga on Oct 21, 2018 17:53:34 GMT 12
Not sure where you get your mis-info from, but the new bang bang(technical term?) definitely does go bang bang. Though i would suggest you squeeze the trigger, if you pull it its likely to go as far off target as your mis-info!.
OK, save a few dollars, stick the defence force pers in Hilux's with a .50cal mount...then wait for the howls and enquiries when one of them gets killed. Its better value in the end to get decent kit from day one. That takes time and truckloads of research, all of which is under constant scrutiny because the taxpayer demands transperancy for the $ spent.
As to the 'why does it take so long?' query, Air NZ makes money out of their purchases, NZDF/Govt. don't, so that is likely to be part of it and i think you will find that there is also a lot of years and backroom research before any commercial announcements are made.
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 22, 2018 9:11:30 GMT 12
It looks like Buzz Lightyears design. And no you cant trust the Navy ( or Army for that matter ) to select the right kit. How come it takes years to introduce a new toy into service ( NH90 ) yet Air NZ has their new 787s earning $$$ within a week . Even the Army's lastest bang bang doesnt go bang , rather embarrassing if you pulled the trigger. I said years ago ( nobody listened ) that our Navy should be buying US Coast Guard vessels , even second hand . Long range , good crew facilities , ocean going ( think Alaskan and Aleutian waters ) have a pop gun and are IRB capable . Nobody will listen as Defence think that they always need big ticket items . Yet a Hiluk with a bunch of 50 cals in the tray seem to hit the spot in many places and the hard tipped $5000 rounds that are fired against them just go right through.So then you need a laser guided $2 million missile to do the job ,and I think thats how the Defence industry works . So never ask them how to crack an egg. wow... where to start... This is a proven design and she will make a good dive tender with the internal moon pool and diving bell, station keeping thrusters and the crane for transfer and recovery gear ie downed aircraft at sea...Her second mission is as a survey vessel which again with her station keeping thrusters and sounding gear will be perfect... The Army's latest bang bang, still goes bang bang... and they are still happy with the choice and is much better riffle than the steyr they had.. The firing pin issue with the MARS-L riffles has been fixed as LMT replaced all the parts under warranty/guarantee no questions asked on all riffles even if they were not showing any signs of the issue. Those parts are usually made at another factory and subcontracted out. LMT cannot test every single pin... One has to remember what the NZDF want and what they get are two different things... airforce originally wanted the UH-60 Blackhawk an off the shelf machine. The army only wanted something like 50 LAVs and some form of tracked vehicles including 20 odd main battle tanks. The navy didn't want HMNZS Canterbury there was another option that was given for similar cost but much better capabilities that would have been better as it had a well dock. The navy wanted ESSM, not Sea Ceptor, the navy wants (and should have) Harpoon... but doesn't have anything we only got a true medium range anti-ship missile when we got the Aussie SH-2G Super SeaSprites. The nave didn't want the SeaSprites they wanted the Westland Lynx. The navy didn't want the Vulcan Phalanx they wanted GoalKeeper (CIWS). The Air NZ quickly bring aircraft into service, pretty sure there are millions of dollars and hour upon hours of pilots training, ground crew and maintenance training etc. One has to remember the aircraft whilst is a new aircraft it is not majorly different to what the company already flies. The difference in capability between the UH-1 and the NH-90 is chalk and cheese... while the basics are same, the technology and capability of the NH-90 was a huge shift and upgrade to what they had So the airforce has to learn what they can and can not do with this new aircraft. Unlike AirNZ where it is just going to fly airport to airport, the NH-90 is going to go in to austere environments be put through it true paces it will get ahard life... So would you send your son/daughter to face an opposing force either guerrilla warfare or army to army in a Hilux with a 50 cal, or would you want them in an ann armoured carrier of some description? The idea with any armed force is that your guys are better protected and can fire out to a better range than those who are shooting at you...
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