|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2018 14:25:04 GMT 12
I have looked at these photos loads of times but it has just dwned on me that there is something very odd here. The photos were taken by Leo White from the back of a No. 14 Squadron Harvard and the three aircraft are No. 14 Squadron P-40E's. Somewhere I have the names of the pilots too, but I am sure one of them was Peter Gifford. Now as these three, NZ3008 HQ-B "UMSLOPOGAAS", NZ3036 HQ-Q, and NZ3007 HQ-A "Magnolia Mufflewort", were with No. 14 Squadron then the photos were taken between the 30th of April 1942 when the new squadron received its first Kittyhawks, and the 13th of February 1943 when the squadron shifted to Whenuapai to re-equip with P-40K's and P-40M's. So this is some time before they ventured off for their first Pacific tour, and when they returned from the Pacific they did not return to Mastewrton. Instead they were to reform at RNZAF Station Fairhall, where they flew a different collection of P-40's, none of which were these three. By that time the three aircraft in the photo were with No. 2 Operational Training Unit, I believe, and likely therefore had different unit codes rather than HQ. So, as this is before Feb 1943, why does NZ3036 wear Pacific roundels? Dun, dun, dunnnnnnn!!!!! Was this perhaps a trial application at the time when the No. 3 Squadron Hudsons were changing their own roundels at Guadalcanal and Santo? Air Force Museum of New Zealand Copyright image Air Force Museum of New Zealand Copyright image, from the private collection of the late Dave Howlett
|
|
|
Post by johnnyfalcon on Aug 24, 2018 17:55:12 GMT 12
Are they Pacific roundels? I'm assuming you mean on the wings only of NZ3036?
|
|
|
Post by joey05 on Aug 24, 2018 18:00:42 GMT 12
Also the "HQ" lettering on NZ3036 are also lower than '07 and '08
|
|
|
Post by baz62 on Aug 24, 2018 18:47:29 GMT 12
Jeez the number of times I've admired those photos and I never noticed that! Well spotted Dave. The fuselage roundel is unchanged so I wonder whey they only did the wings?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2018 19:02:32 GMT 12
They are indeed Pacific roundels John, the early incarnations of the blue-white-blue roundel. And yes, on the wings. Compare them with the ones on NZ3008.
|
|
|
Post by errolmartyn on Aug 24, 2018 19:08:07 GMT 12
I have looked at these photos loads of times but it has just dwned on me that there is something very odd here. The photos were taken by Leo White from the back of a No. 14 Squadron Harvard and the three aircraft are No. 14 Squadron P-40E's. Somewhere I have the names of the pilots too, but I am sure one of them was Peter Gifford. Now as these three, NZ3008 HQ-B "UMSLOPOGAAS", NZ3036 HQ-Q, and NZ3007 HQ-A "Magnolia Mufflewort", were with No. 14 Squadron then the photos were taken between the 30th of April 1942 when the new squadron received its first Kittyhawks, and the 13th of February 1943 when the squadron shifted to Whenuapai to re-equip with P-40K's and P-40M's. So this is some time before they ventured off for their first Pacific tour, and when they returned from the Pacific they did not return to Mastewrton. Instead they were to reform at RNZAF Station Fairhall, where they flew a different collection of P-40's, none of which were these three. By that time the three aircraft in the photo were with No. 2 Operational Training Unit, I believe, and likely therefore had different unit codes rather than HQ. So, as this is before Feb 1943, why does NZ3036 wear Pacific roundels? Dun, dun, dunnnnnnn!!!!! Was this perhaps a trial application at the time when the No. 3 Squadron Hudsons were changing their own roundels at Guadalcanal and Santo? Air Force Museum of New Zealand Copyright image This photo appears on pages 16-17 of The Weekly News for 7 Apr 43. Errol
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2018 19:08:08 GMT 12
Also the "HQ" lettering on NZ3036 are also lower than '07 and '08 Little anomalies like that occurred all the time in WWII. They did not have specialist aircraft painters in WWII (although the RNZAF did employ sign writers, go figure). And application of unit codes was done at the unit level so it will just be whoever is available got the job of painting it on. If you compare some of the wartime Harvards even the roundels are all over the place for example.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 24, 2018 19:32:39 GMT 12
Thanks Errol. That gives us a last possible date (although it will have been taken well before that week of publication I'd think).
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Aug 24, 2018 22:53:53 GMT 12
The upper wing roundels on HQ-Q are the very similar to those painted on the 16 Sqdn Kitties when they were photographed in April 1943 over National Park. I would not be too surprised to learn that the 14 Sqdn P-40Es in these well-known shots already had the new blue-grey paint in the upper-surface camouflage in place of the original American version of dark earth. However I cannot prove that contention either, but this repainting was going on at about this very time. Peter Gifford would have been flying 3008 in these formation shots, as he was one of its regular pilots. Most P-40Es had two assigned pilots as there were only about ten - twelve Kittyhawks per squadron (plus six Harvards), and well over twenty pilots. The other roundels and finflashes in this formation were also applied only a few months earlier over the top of the original factory-applied markings, probably in October 1942. The RAF introduced this new style of roundel (the type C1) at some point in about mid-1942 from memory, so we were not too far behind in its adoption. David D
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2018 10:36:13 GMT 12
Thanks David. Interesting stuff. Do you think the roundels are a result of the roundel applications on the Hudsons at Guadalcanal? Can you remember when they first appeared?
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Aug 25, 2018 16:48:57 GMT 12
Hard information on RNZAF colour schemes, roundels, etc, in the forward area are very scarce, including the rapid developments which unfolded as 1943 progressed. Another thing I have noticed is that the 14 Sqdn Kitty (HQ-Q, 3036) would appear to have blue centres in the upper wing roundels, when red was still the official colour. If this were the case, I cannot say why, but a possible (implausible?) explanation could be that the red and blue in this particular case may have exactly the same appearance in black & white, against all the odds! It was only later (about July 1943) that the red centres of RNZAF roundels in the forward area were ordered to be changed from red (by this time greatly reduced in area) to blue. Mind you, Wellington seemed to be as much in the dark as everybody else when it came to the colour of paints applied to RNZAF operational aircraft under American jurisdiction, although staff officers in the forward area had to see that such decisions were implemented, as I am certain that they (the staff officers) had to interpret the American commander's wishes and could somewhat influence the outcome. David D
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2018 17:16:04 GMT 12
Well that deepens the mystery because I agree the centres of those roundels are blue. Compare with the centre of the other roundels on the fuselage sides and the upper wing of Umslopogaas and there's no doubt it is not roundel red.
|
|
|
Post by Bruce on Aug 25, 2018 20:07:08 GMT 12
My totally unfounded speculation is that while planning the change in RNZAF Roundels in the pacific, the top brass in Wellington wanted to know what they looked like in service, perhaps to check their suitability when making up the technical orders. For convenience sake they would want a unit close to Wellington, flying a combat type (since the Rongotai comms flight would have a mix of odd sized roundels, they wouldnt be suitable as test subjects) in which case a Masterton - based P40 would be ideal. The roundels are obviously newly painted (compare to the worn B types on the nearest aircraft)
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 25, 2018 22:00:06 GMT 12
That thought crossed my mind too Bruce till David pointed out that even in the Pacific the red centres were not eliminated till at least five months after this photo was taken. I wish we had the date of the photo, but No. 14 Squadron's early record keeping was shockingly poor.
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Aug 26, 2018 11:52:53 GMT 12
Dave, I believe the date estimate you have previously given for photography of the 14 Sqdn Kittys is not that far out, probably Feb/March 1943. This would also almost coincide with the date that the new blue/grey camouflage paint was introduced to replace the dark earth colour previously used in Hudson/Kittyhawk schemes. The late Peter Gifford assured me that he was flying his Magnolia Mufflewurt that day. Come to think of it, I still have my original notes I copied from Peter's log book about 40 years ago, including this period. However there is no mention of actual air to air photography in these notes, but here are the flights in Kittyhawks which mention "formation flying" (all in NZ3007 unless otherwise specified): November 1942; 9, 10, 13 (NZ3043), 15 (ditto), 19 (3025, hit mound of earth on landing, stbd u/c leg collapsed), 21 (3041); December 1942: 23 (3007); January 1943: 17 (3007, invasion scare patrol over Wellington, bogey ships reported off Cape Egmont, duration, one hr); February 1943: 15 (NZ3010, Masterton to Whenuapai, squadron move, 2 hrs); March 1943: 2 (Harvard NZ1010); 2 again (3012), 3 (3012), 4 (3007), 5 (3007, 2nd flight in 3008), 9 (3008, then another flight in 3007), 10 (3012), 12 (3007). His last flights from Whenuapai were on 18/3/43, flying 3010, 3012, then on leave prior to squadron departure for the Pacific Islands, although he was also given some compassionate leave from 29/3/43 to return to Timaru, his wife was expecting a child! He departed for the islands on 23/4/43 for Buttons (New Hebrides) aboard a USAAF C-47 (captain Lt Nygren), to Norfolk Island, then continued on from there in an RNZAF Hudson (SJ-A of 1 Sqdn), to Tontouta, then to Buttons next day, 24th and 25th April. So first half of March would seem to provide excellent opportunities for aerial photography, as by this time they had completed plenty of practice, so would likely impress the photographer, and ultimately the people of NZ! David D
|
|
|
Post by Bruce on Aug 26, 2018 14:24:32 GMT 12
That thought crossed my mind too Bruce till David pointed out that even in the Pacific the red centres were not eliminated till at least five months after this photo was taken. I wish we had the date of the photo, but No. 14 Squadron's early record keeping was shockingly poor. 5 Months is reasonable if they were planning a revised Pacific Roundel (depending of course on discussions with the other allies in the Pacific and when they were instructed to come up with one). it would be entirely expected that part of the planning and specification process would be to actually get some painted on an aircraft to see what they looked like. once everyone was happy with the proportions the specs would be drawn up and sent to the operational units, and of course those other allies for distribution so they would know what to expect as well. Maybe even accompanied by a photograph of said markings - perhaps an air to air photo sortie with other aircraft for comparison!....
|
|
|
Post by alanw on Aug 26, 2018 14:51:25 GMT 12
The upper wing roundels on HQ-Q are the very similar to those painted on the 16 Sqdn Kitties when they were photographed in April 1943 over National Park. I would not be too surprised to learn that the 14 Sqdn P-40Es in these well-known shots already had the new blue-grey paint in the upper-surface camouflage in place of the original American version of dark earth. However I cannot prove that contention either, but this repainting was going on at about this very time. Peter Gifford would have been flying 3008 in these formation shots, as he was one of its regular pilots. Most P-40Es had two assigned pilots as there were only about ten - twelve Kittyhawks per squadron (plus six Harvards), and well over twenty pilots. The other roundels and finflashes in this formation were also applied only a few months earlier over the top of the original factory-applied markings, probably in October 1942. The RAF introduced this new style of roundel (the type C1) at some point in about mid-1942 from memory, so we were not too far behind in its adoption. David D Hi David D, Whilst "Interpreting" Colours from Black/White photos is always a debatable subject, interestingly enough having viewed this photo multiple times, I certainly agree that the new NZ Sea Blue Grey had been applied to NZ3036. My reasoning is that if you compare contrasts to NZ3008 and NZ3036, the "Dark Earth" on NZ3008 is a different hue compared to NZ3036 The paint appears "Darker" as I would imagine newly applied NZ Sea Blue Grey would opposed to the more weathered Dark Earth. So this lead me (IMHO) to conclude the application of NZ Sea Blue Grey. The lower application (as mentioned above) of the "HQ" code is significant also I believe. Just my 10 cents worth Regards Alan
|
|
|
Post by davidd on Aug 27, 2018 0:32:55 GMT 12
Practically all early RNZAF experiments on colour schemes for aircraft operating in the forward area under American command were undertaken at Espiritu Santo (New Hebrides, now Vanuatu) on Hudsons of No. 3 Squadron. This took place in about November/December 1942, with just a few RNZAF officers involved, in consultation with American officers who merely wished to know what was going on so that they would recognise the new roundels should they be introduced generally. It was here that an American blue grey paint was used to partially overpaint the original brown shade on the Hudsons, but the trial aircraft only had this paint applied on upper surface of wings and tailplanes, and fuselage, leaving sides of fuselage, and vertical tail surfaces with original brown. Also the roundels were modified at about this time, with more blue and less red, but unfortunately no photographs seem to have been taken of this new scheme as it was considered experimental, and when it was more widely introduced, all the original brown colour was overpainted with the blue grey.
A version of the American (probably Navy) blue-grey paint was put into production in New Zealand in March 1943, and was applied to P-40Es as well as the new P-40Ks being assembled at Hobsonville for 14 Squadron. It was probably later in about June/July 1943 that the roundels were changed again, with red roundel centre being reduced to a small dot, and shortly after that it was replaced by a large blue disc.
It is thought that the upper wing roundels on Hudsons were changed to blue/white/blue colours to eliminate the largest areas of red in our roundels at an early stage in anticipation of the Americans shooting at our aircraft, in fact they had probably brought this potential problem to our attention when they first saw our original roundels, which was probably what stimulated the original late 1942 trials. Unfortunately there are only scanty details of these original (late 1942) trials, and only brief ones on the changes to Kittyhawk markings following the September 1943 incident. These problems led one RNZAF officer (in fact the incumbent Director of Operations, S/L T O Freeman, DFC, RAF) who wondered later in 1943 that perhaps we should give up our "distinctive" RNZAF roundels and paint on United States "star and bar" insignia to obviate such misunderstandings. However this course was not pursued to the ultimate degree, although we did attempt to keep our insignia looking more like the American markings by retaining just the blue and white colours, and adding side bars from November/December 1943 onwards.
Also in about July 1943, some PV-1 Venturas being delivered to New Zealand from Hawaii were delivered with some strange roundel arrangements, it being suggested that RNZAF roundels be painted on fuselage sides, but that factory-applied American insignia be left on all wing positions, so as to obviate any recognition "incidents". However practically all subsequent deliveries were ferried south with full USA insignia, but RNZAF serial numbers - sometimes it pays to just go with the flow. However when these same Ventura aircraft were ferried north again a few months later they were resplendent in full RNZAF markings, and there were subsequently a couple of identification "incidents" with these aircraft, although it is thought that these were initiated as a result of faulty aircraft identification rather than problems with our nationality markings as such. David D
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2018 10:51:28 GMT 12
Bingo! In Stan Quill's logbook it shows he flew the Harvard NZ1010 with P/O Leo White for Photography on the 5th of March 1943. So that is the date of the photo shoot. I remember now reading elsewhere that Quill had flown the Harvard, perhaps in Leo's book "Fighters"?
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 27, 2018 11:23:28 GMT 12
NZ3036 HQ-Q was apparently flown on this shoot by Paul Green. I also just discovered a comment I made here on the forum way back on the 10th of January 2007 about the Pacific roundels. Time had obviously erased my memory that I'd previously noticed those roundels
|
|