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Post by vansvilla on Feb 28, 2019 11:59:34 GMT 12
Leonardo and Northrop Gumman Australia have joined forces to put in a bid for supplying the RNZAF with C-27j for our FAMC. Expecting NZ to decide second half 2019.
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Post by machina on Feb 28, 2019 16:01:19 GMT 12
I quite like the C27J....has the appearance of a mini C130, could be utilised for both lift and MPA..... A400s for strategic and heavy lift, C27J for smaller loads and additional MPA activity....ticks a lot of boxes. I think the C27J’s are quite affordable too. Interesting! A combination of the A-400 and the C-27/C295 utilised in exactly that way is what I hope we go for (in decent airframe numbers too). It would tick the box for the future complimentary MPA capability we've been told about. I just hope that if this bid was successful it wouldn't be all we get, with no A-400 or similar. That kind of scenario feels like something one of our idiotic governments would do.
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Post by machina on Feb 28, 2019 16:03:42 GMT 12
If we did get the C-27, how important is commonality with Aussie?
The Jane's article quotes that official hinting at a possible presence being established here in NZ. Strikes me as a good thing but what are the realities/likelihood of such an arrangement?
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Post by saratoga on Feb 28, 2019 16:47:05 GMT 12
C-27J cost nearly as much to operate with surprisingly less versatility then the C-130J
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Post by kiwiruna on Feb 28, 2019 18:28:42 GMT 12
While we are at can we get(ISR/ISTAR)packages for them.
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Feb 28, 2019 19:02:21 GMT 12
I thought the C-295 was far more versatile than the old-design airframe of the C-27
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Post by nighthawknz on Mar 1, 2019 15:59:03 GMT 12
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Post by joey05 on Mar 1, 2019 16:08:16 GMT 12
Must be something happening behind closed door for all these announcements of offers coming out over a short period. Its been going on so long I am starting to not really care what we get just that we get something! Ill put my money on a A400/C235 or C295 mix and there wont be enough airframes.......
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Post by nighthawknz on Mar 1, 2019 17:04:25 GMT 12
Must be something happening behind closed door for all these announcements of offers coming out over a short period. Its been going on so long I am starting to not really care what we get just that we get something! Ill put my money on a A400/C235 or C295 mix and there wont be enough airframes....... I like you options as well... I can guarantee there won't be enough airframes... :-(
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Post by kiwiruna on Mar 1, 2019 18:09:52 GMT 12
I feel that we'll go with c-130 its a known commodity and Spartan for the interoperability with RAAF. my 10cents worth
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Post by saratoga on Mar 1, 2019 18:37:20 GMT 12
Won't go with Spartan, nearly as much operating cost as a Herc. We'd be better of with all Herc fleet
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Post by snafu on Mar 1, 2019 18:50:48 GMT 12
Won't go with Spartan, nearly as much operating cost as a Herc. We'd be better of with all Herc fleet Agree C27J is not a C130H replacement, I’d also caution a A400M/C295 split if only 2 A400 were bought
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Post by nighthawknz on Mar 1, 2019 20:04:51 GMT 12
It needs to be able to carry the NH-90 and as well as the NZLAV... and the a400m can, am unsure if the C-2 can???
Personally, I would like to see x4 A400M and x4 or 5 C295
But the C-2 has peeked my interest... lol
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Post by foxcover on Mar 2, 2019 5:02:28 GMT 12
1 x A321NeoLR 2 x A400M 3 x C295W
You heard it here first 😉
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Post by saratoga on Mar 2, 2019 5:51:39 GMT 12
Please don't. A fleet of any one platform less than 3 is ridiculous, and commonality is often less than you would expect across similar platforms.
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Post by tfly on Mar 2, 2019 8:08:07 GMT 12
1 x A321NeoLR 2 x A400M 3 x C295W You heard it here first 😉 Why not A330 MRTT? This would be a force multiplier insofar as it would provide AAR for P8 and A400M (should we opt for these) has commonality with allies like UK and Oz and would be a useful asset for working alongside coalition partners I think with with only buying 4 x P8 it is almost essential to have AAR capability to enable P8 to stay on station longer and expand search area without the need to come back to base to refuel. It would double up as troop and VIP transport My recommendation would be 2 x MRTT 3 x A400M (minimum of 3 so always 2 available for tasking) 3 x C295W for lighter work (maybe double up as MPA) Hopefully Airbus could cut us a good deal 😉 Just my POV
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jjt
Sergeant
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Post by jjt on Mar 2, 2019 8:24:29 GMT 12
1 x A321NeoLR 2 x A400M 3 x C295W You heard it here first 😉 Why not A330 MRTT? This would be a force multiplier insofar as it would provide AAR for P8 and A400M (should we opt for these) has commonality with allies like UK and Oz and would be a useful asset for working alongside coalition partners I think with with only buying 4 x P8 it is almost essential to have AAR capability to enable P8 to stay on station longer and expand search area without the need to come back to base to refuel. It would double up as troop and VIP transport My recommendation would be 2 x MRTT 3 x A400M (minimum of 3 so always 2 available for tasking) 3 x C295W for lighter work (maybe double up as MPA) Hopefully Airbus could cut us a good deal 😉 Just my POV
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Post by joey05 on Mar 2, 2019 9:48:20 GMT 12
Here we go again......
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jjt
Sergeant
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Post by jjt on Mar 2, 2019 9:59:29 GMT 12
Walks into the bar, tips hat to custodian Dave Homewood, orders beer....walks over to the leaner....2 hours later, topic of FAMC comes up....🤣🤣🤣
Why not A330 MRTT?..........because money.....that’s why. Don’t get me wrong, it would be a giant leap forward for the NZDF (if the Govt sprung for one I would actually do legitimate cartwheels and be fist pumping in the air......but they won’t, I literally have so little faith in Pollies to get it right).
It all comes back to budget and we’ve got to purchase so much with so little.
There are so many “boxes” that need ticking...strategic lift, tactical lift, additional MPA capability - be it aircraft or UAVs, VIP transport....(start throwing in A2A refueling - a massive undertaking), let alone all the training, staffing (we will need to recruit more aircrew I’m sure), additional costs of upgrading facilities to support whatever new airframe/s are...again with only so many dollars to play with.
We can’t possibly do it all, so we’ve got to cover the primary mission (which will be outlined in the DCP) and be smart about any additional secondary capability we can eeeek out or achieve....which may be dependant on whether we go for a single type of airframe or multiple types. There is only one airframe in my opinion that could do all roles that NZ require...and that is the A400M. Would we save money just having a single type to operate rather than multiple types, of course. Are we happy purchasing the A400M given the price, it’s background issues and Airbus management of the program....schools out on that...everyone’s got an opinion.
If you don’t like going down that road then we would have to purchase multiple types of aircraft. Combinations have been thrown around, which are all great...but some of these combinations are not realistic because of 1) budget or 2) because there will not be enough of each type to effectively fill its intended role (as discussed ad nauseum...there will always be airframes in the shop getting maintenance, some overseas on deployment, at least one required on standby for immediate use within NZ etc etc etc).
On another note, some random comments about some of the airframes being discussed:
Kawasaki C2 - pretty awesome looking (‘cos that’s important isn’t it..😂), heaps of range / speed and cargo. Ticks strategic, can’t do tactical.
A400M - as above can do all roles, takes an NH90 with very little disassembly, can take a couple of LAVs (can do A2A but drogue only...not compatible with P8)....but expensive and future sustainment questionable. Some have questioned if its ‘proven’ in the primary roles of strategic and tactical lift...I would say yes IMHO. Would need to lock Airbus into a contract that supports it properly and so they cannot just wash their hands of us once a deal was signed.
C130J - pretty much THE gold standard in tactical lift. Ticks everything but can’t do strategic and can’t take a NH90 or LAV without a song and dance show. Familiarity with the airframe is a bonus.
KC-390 - there are a lot of raps on this aircraft and it also ticks quite a few boxes for what we want. I do not personally think that it can perform the strategic role however. Furthermore the C130J and the A400M appear to be better / more proficient at the HADR role and anything involving a short and rough runway (IMHO). Definitely has a solid future with Boeing coming on board with Embraer for the KC-390. I think it’s been trialled for drogue A2A also, if that is a consideration. Not sure it could do any MPA capability.....
C295 - smaller lift capability and also has shown to be able to pick up some MPA work as well. Would only be looked at in a multiple airframe package with something else covering the strategic and VIP roles.
C27J - as above with the C295 but with commonality with C130J cockpit instrumentation and engines.
I don’t think we are going to realistically look at anything Chinese or Ukrainian....I just can’t see them being viable.
Left field if it was decided to go down the multiple airframe route.....what about a couple of CH47s....? Given we currently have 7 airframes to replace (2 x 757s and 5 x C130H) could for example 5 x A400Ms and 2 x CH47s cover all or most of the roles anticipated that will be required to cover.....?
Anyway, seeing as we are getting closer the DCP being released for public consumption and with a whole lot of companies preparing to make proposals, I think it’s OK to have a bit more discussion around our options going forward.
Sorry...running out of steam now....need a coffee (or maybe a beer!)....hope I haven’t bored you all to tears or been too controversial.
Look forward to hearing some other points of view.
Cheers
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jjt
Sergeant
Posts: 19
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Post by jjt on Mar 2, 2019 10:06:14 GMT 12
Hehe...joey05 walks out the bar rolling eyes.....! Sorry mate, I understand. I can’t have these conversations with wifey though...
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