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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2019 0:22:33 GMT 12
This is very interesting. I honestly would not be surprised if it was true. it seems numerous enemy submarines actually visited New Zealand waters throughout the war.
Japanese Submarine Off Dominion Coast
(Official News Service)
(Rec, 9 p.m.) KURE, Sept. 12.
Proof that a Japanese submarine was in Australian and New Zealand waters in 1943 has been obtained from a former officer of the vessel, who lives in the New Zealand area of the British Commonwealth Occupation Force. He says that the submarine, which was of the No. 38 A class, sailed from Kure in 1942. It was stationed at Rabaul, from where it carried stores to Salamaua. Later the submarine made a trip around Australia and New Zealand, and in November, 1943, it was about 50 miles off the west coast of the North Island, where it was picked up by two aircraft and attacked, but was not damaged. Both Mount Cook and Mount Egmont were noted by the crew of the submarine. It was thought to have been sunk during action in the Philippines in 1944.
OTAGO DAILY TIMES, 14 SEPTEMBER 1946
------------------------------------ ATTACK BY FIGHTERS
JAPANESE SUBMARINE
(P.A.) HASTINGS, Sept. 17. Further substantiation of the statement that a Japanese submarine was in Australian and New Zealand waters in 1943 and was actually attacked by a New Zealand aircraft when only 50 miles or so off the coast near Auckland is provided by a former member of No. 17 (Fighter) Squadron, which at the time was stationed at Seagrove aerodrome. The Auckland airman, who now resides in Hastings, stated that in November, 1943, Squadron Leader (then Flying Officer) J. Balfour, D.F.C.. of Waimate. and now of Cheviot, was detailed to lead a section of two aircraft from No. 17 Squadron to inspect an object that had been plotted on a radar screen, and which was traced to a point about 50 miles off shore on the West Coast from Auckland.
The object at sea was sighted and the airmen saw the conning tower of a submarine showing just above water. Their aircraft attacked and fired several bursts from their .5 calibre guns but the submarine quickly submerged, leaving only its wake behind.
GISBORNE HERALD, 18 SEPTEMBER 1946
-----------------
JAP. SUBMARINE MYSTERY
STORY OF ATTACK BY FIGHTERS
CONFLICTING REPORTS
(P.A.) WELLINGTON, Oct. 15.
A recent report from Hastings that a Japanese submarine was attacked by aircraft of No. 17 Fighter Squadron, stationed at Seagrove aerodrome, Auckland, in November, 1943; is not confirmed by the Director of Air operations, Air Headquarters, Wellington. No records, exist to show that any Japanese submarine was sighted off the coast near Auckland at any time during the war, and the submarine from which the seaplane flew over Wellington in March, 1942, was the only one which the records show to have been in New Zealand waters during the war.
The Hastings' report came from former airman of No. 17 Squadron, who said Squadron-leader (then flying-officer) J. Balfour, British; and U.S. D.F.C., of Waimate, and now of Cheviot, was detailed to lead a section of two aircraft from No. 17 Squadron, to inspect an object plotted on the radar screen as 50 miles offshore on* the west coast from. Auckland. The object at sea was sighted and the airman saw the conning tower of the submarine showing just above the water.
Several bursts from a .50 calibre machine-gun were fired, but the submarine quickly submerged. The Director of Air Operations said the Air Department had made an inquiry into this report, but found nothing to suggest that an enemy submarine had ever been sighted in the Auckland area and the report therefore could not be substantiated.
Writing to. the ‘ Evening Post,' Mr T. N. Page, formerly a wireless mechanic in No. 17 Squadron, also says the submarine could not have been sighted by No. 17. Squadron in November, 1943. He says the squadron left Seagrove for Whenuapai in June of that year, and about July the pilots went overseas, the ground crew going overseas as a S.U. (salvage unit) at the end of August . These facts were confirmed by the Director of Air Operations.
EVENING STAR, 15 OCTOBER 1946
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2019 0:27:52 GMT 12
SIGHTING BY PLANE
NO BOMBS ON BOARD
SUBMARINE’S CRASH DIVE
(P.A.) WELLINGTON. Sept. 16.
One of the two aircraft which “attacked” a Japanese submarine in New Zealand waters in November, 1943, was unarmed and had its bomb bays full of meat and other supplies. Its pilot, Mr W. K. Wilby, now assistant town clerk at Petone, revealed this to-day. Until he read the official correspondent’s dispatch from Kure Mr. Wilby had had no confirmation that the vessel he saw was a Japanese submarine.
He said he first sighted the submarine about 9 a.m. on November 27. The plane, a Hudson, was about 60 miles north of Cape Reinga on its way to Fiji as a replacement. “We were at 1900 ft. over cloud at 1500 ft. when I saw a sub. dead ahead making about 10 knots,” said Mr. Wilby. “I drew the attention of the crew, as there was no mention of shipping in our operational order. About the same time the sub. must have seen us, for it started to dive. We dived, too, and could plainly see it under the surface as we passed over.
“Probably that gave rise to the Japanese officer's report of an attack, but we had no bombs aboard, only meat, fish and vegetables. We circled round, but there was no more appearance of the sub. and. after reporting the sighting, we flew on to Norfolk Island.”
GISBORNE HERALD, 17 SEPTEMBER 1946
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Post by davidd on Apr 7, 2019 9:26:35 GMT 12
Interesting that about this time there was a US Navy submarine in NZ water, and in those off Fiji. This was one of the old "Pig Boats" (also known by their class-name, S-boats) which had been removed from operational service, overhauled, and redesignated as training submarines. They provided invaluable realistic training to various Allied air and naval forces throughout the Pacific, including RNZAF Hudson, Ventura and Catalina crews from late 1943 and well into 1944. There was a thread recently on this Board about the visit of this submarine to Fiji for exercises with 4 Sqdn. Exercises in New Zealand waters as well as those around the New Hebrides/Vanuatu were also covered in my articles in the AHSNZ Journal on the life and times of the Ventura. These known visits are therefore the most likely source of the November 1943 sighting off Auckland. The reported attack on this sub by Balfour was also published in the AHSNZ Journal a great many years ago, but no further confirmation was forthcoming, not surprisingly if you read the tone of your further articles above Dave, where everybody in Air Department was denying such incursions by enemy vessels at that time. Identifying the nationality of otherwise unidentified submarines at sea was indeed a black art, and probably still is. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2019 9:44:04 GMT 12
Well the Air Department was either lying or they had a very poor look at their records, because No. 17 Squadron was in fact in New Zealand during the whole of November 1943. They came home from their Pacific tour with the last men arriving home on the 24th of October 1943. On the 29th of October the first pilots arrived at Woodbourne/Fairhall to begin reforming the squadron.
And in typical fashion the ORB does not record their training flights through the month of November, till December 1943 when they where heading back to the Pacific for their next tour.
I must say that most of the Fighter Squadron ORB's are really quite poorly kept in places. I never struck that with the General Reconnaissance Squadron ORB's I have looked at, but many of the Fighter ORB's have massive chunks missing and long periods of records where the clerks have not bothered adding the dates. This is why I am on the hunt for fighter squadron logbooks to copy as they are the only records that fill in the gaps.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2019 9:55:50 GMT 12
In the case of the GR Squadron, the veteran who told me was a ground crew member and it must have bee a fair bit earlier than Nov 1943 as No. 2 (GR) Squadron was still based at Nelson. He said hey had an intense week where the whole squadron was on alert and many more patrols were being mounted than normal. Everyone was worked very hard during the week he said but were all in the dark as to what was happening and the aircrew were not telling them. But at the end of the week the squadron was gathered together ad the C.O. got up and told them all to keep it top secret but the reason for all the activity was they'd been hunting a submarine that had been spotted and in the end they had managed to locate and sink it. He said he'd never ever seen anything about it since.
I know that No.'s 2 and 8 GR Squadron definitely were chasing submarine that went through Cook Strait and fired a torpedo at the Wahine ferry. But I don't think this was the same occasion. It is definite that Japanese and German subs were operating in our waters at various times, there's no doubting it.
I highly suspect that maybe a lot of the operations were deliberately not recorded and not released publicly so as to not cause panic with the public. I mean the govt ordered the men who returned from Singapore after it fell kept the entire debacle secret so as to not spread fear, and that's thousands of miles away. So I can see them hushing up the enemy right here on our doorstep. There are also the very plausible stories of the Japanese subs being supplied by separatist Maori groups in Northland and on the coast off Ratana.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 7, 2019 10:28:26 GMT 12
From the GISBORNE HERALD, 17 July 1947
JAP. AIR RECCE.
AUCKLAND VISIT FLIGHT CONFIRMED
ACTIVITY OVER FIJI
(P.A.) AUCKLAND. July 17
Confirmation of the presence near Auckland in May, 1942. of a Japanese submarine and of a flight by its reconnaissance aircraft over Auckland on the night of May 24 is contained in intelligence records of the defence forces at Fiji during the war. The record is sufficiently detailed to confirm also that the submarine was the I 21 and that it was from this craft that Lieutenant Susumu Ito said he had flown when he was specially interviewed for the New Zealand Herald at Iwakune earlier this month.
Movements Known “It was known that for many weeks past Japanese submarines had been cruising in the South-West Pacific waters and the need for alert defence was appreciated, especially as these craft carried small floatplanes for reconnaissance work,” the report says. “The wanderings of one of these submarines, the I 21, demonstrated both long-range mobility and daring aggressiveness.
“On the night of May 19 its floatplane carried out a reconnaissance over Suva. Five nights later, on May 24, it was over Auckland, and five nights later still, on May 29, it was over Sydney. The following night the New South Wales capital had its little excitement with midget submarines.”
Further reference to the flight over Auckland by a Japanese aircraft on May 24. 1942, was made in a Press Association telegram from Wellington published on August 20, 1945.
Reconnaissance of Suva It stated that an aircraft from a Japanese submarine had made a reconnaissance over Suva and that the submarine later approached Auckland and sent its aircraft over the harbour on May 24. After this it went to Sydney, where a final reconnaissance was carried out at dawn on May 29. Final plans were made and on the night of May 31-June 1 midget submarines attacked Sydney harbour.
When Lieutenant Susumu Ito was interviewed for the New Zealand Herald this month he could not remember the date of his flight over Auckland but was certain that it was either May 17 or May 24, 1942. He was definite about being over Sydney on May 29 and identified his submarine as the I 21.
These particulars are thus independently confirmed.
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 7, 2019 10:32:43 GMT 12
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Post by chinapilot on Apr 7, 2019 14:19:35 GMT 12
Interesting - the ‘object’ in the water may have been just that, an ‘object’ ?
As Dave mentions reports may have been suppressed after the Auckland flight to contain any panic as things weren’t looking too good then with the apparently unstoppable japanese almost knocking at the door. I remember my mother telling me that they were very frightened especially as a rumour went around that they had made a flight over Wellington as well.
It’s possible that submarines had been in NZ and Pacific waters even prior to the war to reconnoitre coastal areas and suitable landing areas as included in the overall japanese strategy was the objective of taking New Caledonia, Fiji and Samoa and therefore cutting them off as staging points to the USA. It seems that plans were well drawn up to accomplish this but the ‘delay’ in taking Port Moresby etc used the resources.
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Post by shorty on Apr 7, 2019 17:28:10 GMT 12
In a slightly related vein when it comes to identifying suitable areas, if you are ever travelling on SH 1 between Temuka and Hinds there is a roadside picnic/pull off area at Ealing. There is nothing else there, just an intersection. However, in the rest area is a laminated map of the district which was recovered from Tokyo at the end of the war and it is all in Japanese. Begs two questions, why would you want to invade Ealing? and if our brave troops could roll the the two large concrete cylinders (also displayed) on to the road to hinder Japanese transport what was there to stop equally brave Japanese troops (who no doubt would have had superior firepower support) rolling them out of the way? Incidentally there are two similar cylinders beside the road up to Tairoa Head albatross colony (down the road from my place) where there was a coastal battery guarding the Otago Harbour
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 7, 2019 21:07:31 GMT 12
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Post by Mustang51 on Apr 7, 2019 22:27:00 GMT 12
Japanese and German submarines visited Australian waters during the war. Just back from the Cessnock two day airshow so the mind a bit addled. Will try and dig out my Australia Station notes to give me the details tomorrow. Why not a little side cruise to NZ after such a long trip? Guessing they did.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2019 15:01:49 GMT 12
and if our brave troops could roll the the two large concrete cylinders (also displayed) on to the road to hinder Japanese transport what was there to stop equally brave Japanese troops (who no doubt would have had superior firepower support) rolling them out of the way? The point of creating roadblocks was to make the advancing troops stop, and then from carefully concealed pre-built bunkers and slit trenches the defenders could pick off any of the enemy who tried to clear the road. Meanwhile it is buying time for those behind to be better prepared. A pretty good strategy to have the blocks on all the main roads likely to be used by an advancing column to slow their progress.
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Post by shorty on Apr 8, 2019 21:01:58 GMT 12
Reading in a NZ Memories(?) magazine at physio today there was a letter from a chap who was doing gunnery practice in the turret of an Oxford out of Ohakea and the crew spotted a sub at 0845 hours on 5 June 1943. didn't say anything else about it
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2019 21:47:54 GMT 12
Very interesting Shorty.
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Post by shorty on Apr 9, 2019 9:31:39 GMT 12
Sorry, didn't note which issue it was but it was a fairly recent one and it was mentioned in the "letters" section at the back
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Post by pjw4118 on Apr 9, 2019 10:04:14 GMT 12
The Japanese certainly had good mapping perhaps built up from pre war visits. In a book I have "Queensland Airfields WW2 - 50 years On , it contains a Japanese Admiralty map dated 28 Sept 1943 and it shows , rivers , contours ,reefs and airfields throughout Papua and Queensland . So they were certainly prepared . In Olwyn Ramseys book Wings over Waipapkauri she describes a Japanese landing on 90 Mile beach and making contact with locals , its Worth reading .
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 9, 2019 10:43:23 GMT 12
Since the landings by Japanese a submarine crew or crews on both 90 Mile Beach and at Ratana were "officially covered up", yet remain "well known", it is quite possible that if the stories were true the submarine attacked by No. 17 Squadron and No. 2 Squadron was the same one that was making contact with these alleged disaffected Maori groups. I have also read a fairly convincing story that a small group of Japanese submariners were discovered with some Maori on the Coromandel Peninsular by a Home Guard patrol who shot the lot of them, and that this was covered up.
If any of this was true I wish the government would open the records on these alleged encounters.It's nearly 80 years, so the time is right. But with the Government's buddies at Ratana Pa being some of the alleged traitors I doubt it will ever happen.
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Post by AussieBob on Apr 9, 2019 13:29:02 GMT 12
There are some details of Japanese submarine visits on the NZ Navy Museum website navymuseum.co.nz/history-of-nz-coastal-defences-and-enemy-operations-in-nz-waters/"Japanese submarines had been operating off New Zealand since early 1942. In March of that year I-25 had passed through Cook Strait, transited up the East Coast of the North Island before departing to the North. Its aircraft flew over Wellington on the morning of 8 March and later over Auckland. I-25 was sighted by a fishing boat, a resident of Mayor Island, a fisherman from Tauranga and HMS Viti picked up hydrophone effect in the Bay of Plenty. The Navy Office analysis of the sightings was that they were actually sightings of Viti, while her hydrophone effect detection was classified as being a fishing boat. In May 1942 I-21 cruised off the northern part of the North Island, again sending its seaplane on a reconnaissance flight over Auckland. This submarine was the leader of the midget submarine attack on Sydney on 31 May. In February 1943 another submarine, to date unidentified, cruised through Cook Strait and up the East Coast of the North Island. This submarine was detected by coastal radar stations and by D/F fixes. Air searches failed to locate the submarine, although an oil slick was sighted. In October and November 1943 there was considerable evidence of another submarine operating off New Zealand, initiated by a United States Submarine reporting that two torpedoes had been fired at her when about 300nm North East of Auckland, which was followed by several sightings in the Cook Strait area and finally a sighting by an RNZAF aircraft of a periscope about 100nm north of North Cape.[41] Given all these earlier ‘positive’ submarine sightings and contacts it is difficult to understand why the assessments of the February/March 1944 sightings were so negative. All were officially classified as whales/dolphins. Whales and dolphins are common off the Kaikoura coast, as evidenced by the currently thriving whale watching business there today, although there were fewer whales in 1944, but still enough to sustain the coastal whaling industry which was still operating. This meant that mariners who regularly plied those waters, such as the crews of inter-island steamers and coastal freighters were familiar with whales and dolphins. It is also relevant that HMNZS Wakakura had been based at Lyttelton for over two years by 1944, regularly patrolling the area. Submarine Sightings February/March 1944 Serial Ship Time Position Bald HeadT 260025M Feb 44 090 Mercury Bay 75nm 36o 50’S, 177 o 00’E McFadden/Hahn 260900M Feb 44 Rafa Downs, North Canterbury* CoquilleT 280315M Feb 44 37o 54’S, 178o 55’E HolmdaleT 291920M Feb 44 42o 44’S, 173o 28’S RangitiraT 010157M Mar 44 42o 24’S, 174o 01’S Aircraft 011305M Mar 44 7nm NE Kaikoura PahauA 080435M Mar 44 41o 29’S, 174o 47’S Wakakura 082108M Mar 44 050 Godley Head 40nm A ASDIC contact T Torpedo attack * discounted as an aberration/unreliable Speed of Advance 1-3 112nm/52hrs = 2.2kts 3-4 270nm/40hrs = 6.8kts 4-5 30nm/6.6hrs = 4.5kts 5-6 10nm/12hrs = 1kt 6-7 66nm/7days = minimal 7-8 60nm/16.5hrs = 3.6kts Circumstances of Sightings On 26 February the United States Navy tug Bald Head, 1117 tons was enroute from Auckland to Balboa and reported that a torpedo crossed her bow at 0025. The position was 75nm off the East Coast. Classified porpoise by SOT&M. Two farmers were shooting on Rafa Downs station in North Canterbury on the morning of 26 February, when they looked out to sea from the cliffs at about 0900. McFadden reported seeing a long black vessel with a deckhouse midships, that was unlike a fishing vessel. Hahn made a short statement that his eyesight was not as good as McFadden’s and that he could not give any details of the vessel. The report was only made some days later, after the Prime Minister made a public broadcast on the radio, about the attack on Rangitira [serial 5]. Classified non-sub by SOT&M. The United States tanker Coquille, 10,450 tons was on passage to Lyttelton on 28 February, when naval ratings in her gun’s crew reported sighting a periscope and the track of a torpedo, at 0315. Classified porpoise by SOT&M. The coastal freighter Holmdale was drifting near Bushett Rocks off the Canterbury coast on the evening of 29 February, with the crew fishing, when a torpedo was sighted running past the ship. The time was 1920 and the Captain considered the possibility that it could have been a porpoise, but this was discounted because there were none in the area at the time. Classified porpoise by SOT&M. At 0157 on the morning of 1 March the inter-island steamer Rangitira was northbound for Wellington, off Kaikoura, when the gun’s crew reported seeing the track of a torpedo pass close under the stern. **clear night and the moon had set at 2228. Classified porpoise by SOT&M. Early that afternoon, at 1305, the pilot of a Union Airways aircraft reported sighting a submarine off Kaikoura. Because he did not report this by radio immediately, but instead made his report on landing at Wellington, the sighting was discounted by SOT&M. On the morning of 8 March the A/S M/S Trawlers Pahau and Maimai were on an A/S patrol off the entrance to Wellington Harbour and Pahau gained a contact on ASDIC. This was classified submarine and an attack carried out. Contact was lost and the target was subsequently classified non-sub by the ships. That night the minesweeper Wakakura was on patrol in Pegasus Bay when what was believed to be the periscope of a submarine was sighted at a rage of approximately 200m. The ship altered course to ram and increased speed, but the submarine was seen to submerge. An attack was conducted with three depth charges (out of the four carried), the last of which resulted in a more violent explosion than the other two. The contact could not be further prosecuted because the ship was not fitted with ASDIC, but Wakakura continued to patrol the area until 090200M, when relieved by the A/S M/S trawler HMNZS Awatere. Sunset had been at 1902 and the sighting was at 2108. It was a clear moonlit night (moonrise was at 1825 and it was nearly a full moon). The contact subsequently classified as the fin of a whale, by SOA/S. Awatere passed over the position a little over two hours later and saw some small oil slicks on the surface, previously noted by Wakakura, which were assumed to be residue of Amatol from the depth charges [not uncommon]. The position given by Wakakura may well be somewhat inaccurate, given that the ship did not have radar and it was night time, nevertheless, Awatere made a rendezvous at the spot some hours later. The officer responsible for analysing submarine contacts in Navy Office, Wellington, was the Staff Officer A/S (Anti-Submarine), Commander (A/S) J.A. Smyth VD, RNZNVR Conclusion While at this remove, some 60 years after the events, it is difficult to be completely aware of any extraneous circumstances that may have been relevant in 1944, a fresh review of the sighting evidence and documentary analysis is justified. Japanese submarines are known to have been operating around New Zealand in 1942-43 and one German submarine operated off the East Coast in 1945, so it is entirely possible that a Japanese submarine was off New Zealand in February/March 1944. The observers involved in serials *** and ** were adamant that the tracks seen were torpedoes, not porpoises. Similarly the pilot of the aircraft of serial 6 was very experienced and could be expected to be able to distinguish the difference between a whale and a submarine, especially as he flew that route regularly. The sighting of Messers McFadden and Hahn (serial 2) has been discounted as being unreliable, as it was in 1944. Additionally the date of this reported sighting does not conform to the other contacts. Taken together with the completely feasible speed of advance between contacts, the evidence is considered to be entirely consistent with that of a submarine on patrol down the East Coast of the North Island and in the choke point at the eastern approaches to Cook Strait. Given the relatively shallow water in the position of the Wakakura attack (approximately 125m) it is possible, albeit unlikely (the usual pattern was 12 depth charges), that one of the three depth charges did mortal damage to the submarine."
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Post by davidd on Apr 9, 2019 19:04:51 GMT 12
The short thread on the US Navy sub in Fiji waters in late November 1943 was initiated by medicus on 27 Oct 2017 (and I thought it was within last 3 to 6 months!), under title "4 Sqn 1943 (Nausori) anti-submarine training", last post on thread dated as recently as 27 Jan 2019.
After checking the record of operations flown by 4 Sqdn from Nausori in latter part of November 1943 and through December 1943, there are NO records of any enemy submarines operating in their area, and certainly no attacks. Only excitement seemed to be a couple of unidentified aircraft flying over, and these were almost certainly American. Japanese subs seemed to be getting pretty scarce in the South Pacific by this time, although there may have been one or two sneaking about further north. There must have been several operating in the northern Solomons and up to Rabaul, and some probably came as far south as the approaches to Espiritu Santo; last actual attack I am aware of took place in about April 1944 - I will have to hunt down my AHSNZ Journals and look up my own articles! Dave D
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Post by pepe on Apr 11, 2019 9:32:10 GMT 12
Since the landings by Japanese a submarine crew or crews on both 90 Mile Beach and at Ratana were "officially covered up", yet remain "well known", it is quite possible that if the stories were true the submarine attacked by No. 17 Squadron and No. 2 Squadron was the same one that was making contact with these alleged disaffected Maori groups. I have also read a fairly convincing story that a small group of Japanese submariners were discovered with some Maori on the Coromandel Peninsular by a Home Guard patrol who shot the lot of them, and that this was covered up. If any of this was true I wish the government would open the records on these alleged encounters.It's nearly 80 years, so the time is right. But with the Government's buddies at Ratana Pa being some of the alleged traitors I doubt it will ever happen. I have to wonder how plausible these "well known" landings actually were? Is there any actual hard evidence of any official cover up? (Yes, a bit of an oxymoron...) As a former Far North local, I know that the book comments re the 90 mile Beach landing book prompted a "rolling of eyes" and comments like "that old pub yarn again" from a number of the local older generation. I would also suggest to achieve a coordinated landing (requiring undetected comms.) on a west coast surf beach in the close vicinity of a busy air force base would fail the risk versus reward test significantly. The number of "disaffected Maori" in the north cannot of been significant as again the older locals could not remember them at all. I know nothing of the other reported landings, but the Coromandel "story" would be extremely hard to cover up...
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