What if the Wellingtons had reached NZ in September 1939

[30sqnatc]

So what if the declaration of war by UK occurred a few weeks or months later. The RNZAFs thirty new Wellington bombers would have been ferried to NZ and started training in the two newly established medium bomber squadrons.

- Would the government still have offered all or some back to Britain when war was declared against Germany?

- If UK took up any offer would the government recalled them when Japan entered the war?

- If they were retained in NZ or recalled, given the concerns raised during the April 1939 Pacific Defence Conference would they have been rushed to Malaya/Singapore in 1942 December and later into Fiji?

- Perhaps they would have been providing maritime patrol over HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

- Would we still have received Hudsons? If not I assume the Wellingtons would have been sent to Guadalcanal as bombers and maritime reconnaissance. Would they have been suitable?

- How would the Wellingtons fabric covering stood up in the humidity of the Pacific?

- They were delivered in standard RAF green/brown scheme. Would they have been changed to the blue/green colour scheme?

What do you think?

Admin if this is in the wrong place please move as you deem appropriate

[Dave Homewood]

My thoughts: Had they arrived they would have formed No. 1 (GR) Squadron at Ohakea, and No. 2 (GR) Squadron at Whenuapai. They would have been for home defence primarily.

Jun 26, 2019 21:04:50 GMT 12 30sqnatc said:

- Would the government still have offered all or some back to Britain when war was declared against Germany?

I doubt it, if they were already here then so would our personnel have been too, so unlikely ad thought would have been given at that stage to handing it all over. They were not on the spot and in the thick of it, as it were.

- If UK took up any offer would the government recalled them when Japan entered the war?

No, because our Wellingtons were not loaned to the RAF, they were sold back to the British Government.

- If they were retained in NZ or recalled, given the concerns raised during the April 1939 Pacific Defence Conference would they have been rushed to Malaya/Singapore in 1942 December and later into Fiji?

I think more likely four or six may have gone to Fiji, had the runway been built to take them by then. I doubt they'd have gone to Singapore.

- Perhaps they would have been providing maritime patrol over HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

I cannot see that myself. But who knows.

- Would we still have received Hudsons?

The initial Hudsons were a result of NZ's Govt pleading with Britain for help because we had no Wellingtons. If we had the 30 Wellingtons there would not have been such an urgency. However as the war progressed and the RNZAF expanded I can see they'd have needed more aircraft and it's likely a deal would have been done to secure some Hudsons from British Lend Lease deals, or direct from the Yanks, as they were ideal for the role - better than Wellingtons would have been.

If not I assume the Wellingtons would have been sent to Guadalcanal as bombers and maritime reconnaissance. Would they have been suitable?

I doubt they would have gone anywhere near Guadalcanal. Our Hudsons went up because they were requested by the US high command there. But I seriously doubt they'd request a squadron of weird British bombers. Hudsons were designed for GR work, Wellingtons were designed as heavy (at the time) bombers and they happened to end up doing GR work with Coastal Command because they were available. Fro what I have heard from Coastal Command guys they were not that well suited in the role, especially the early ones. The Hudsons were much better and I thin they replaced a lot of the Wellingtons in RAF Coastal Command.

- How would the Wellingtons fabric covering stood up in the humidity of the Pacific?

Poorly I expect, but I doubt they'd have gone any further than Fiji at most.

- They were delivered in standard RAF green/brown scheme. Would they have been changed to the blue/green colour scheme?

The NZ Blue-Grey paint was added to Hudsons at Guadalcanal for local conditions and eventually trickled back to NZ as Hudsons returned home. Then it spread to some Harvards, P-40's, Ansons, etc. 

If in this make believe scenario Hudsons or other bombers were in the Pacific front line with Wellingtons doing home defence, and that colour was introduced to the Hudsons, it may well have eventually carried over onto the Wellingtons flying GR patrols around NZ. Who knows. Or they may have ended up in the white and grey coastal command scheme, or a grey and green coastal command scheme.

I think the most likely thing in reality though is we'd have gotten Hudsons in 1941-42, just as we did, and they'd have gone to the Pacific, while the Wellingtons would have done home defence 1939-41/42 and then would have ended up with the School of General Reconnaissance, rather than getting Ansons. They may have given the German Navy more of a run for their money in 1940 though. Trying to find their ships in Baffins and Vildebeests was not ideal.

[davidd]

Well, the delivery of these aircraft was to be staggered, with only the first 18 to be flown out between about October 1939 and March 1940, for No. 1 Squadron (12 at Ohakea) plus six reserves (latter also to be stored at Ohakea). The last 12 (for No. 2 Sqdn @ Whenuapai) were not scheduled for delivery (in the pre-war plans anyway) until October and December 1940. I imagine that if some were ferried to NZ prior to the outbreak of hostilities in Europe, that it is likely the UK govt would have let them stay out here, as NZ was still obligated to use them to protect British interests in both the South Pacific area generally as well as being available to reinforce Singapore, much as our Canberras and then Skyhawks were used between about 1961 and 2000. I doubt that the RAF would want them back after Japan entered the war, as much later Wellington versions would have been entering service with the RAF in large numbers by this time, and again, they would have still been of some use in the South Pacific, looking after "British interests", including Singapore, much as RAAF Hudsons were sent there prior to December 1941. Even if all the original 18 aircraft made it to NZ before hostilities broke out in Europe, I doubt that the remaining 12 would have been sent, but that is just my personal opinion, as is just about everything else in this post. Just how well the Wellingtons would have stood up to NZ conditions, let alone those further north in the Pacific is an interesting subject, although I think it was hoped originally that all these (NZ) aircraft would be accommodated in the large concrete hangars built at Ohakea and Whenuapai for the purpose. Such consideration could not be extended to their sisters serving in Bomber Command, simply because it was just not possible to build enough hangars to accommodate the large numbers now pouring out of the factories, and the decision had to be made to leave them outside for the most part, just like most other RAF aircraft. However the Wellington's bigger brother, the Warwick, later was operated in the Middle as well as the Far East which would have been somewhat akin to South Pacific conditions, and as far as I know, this was not considered a great problem (well, at least till the fabric covering became weakened by constant exposure to the ravages of sunlight, etc.) It would have been a big job to renew the covering in tropical conditions, but it could have been accomplished if the will was there. As for the colours that these aircraft might have been painted should they have been deployed to South Pacific locations, I will not speculate! Well I could, but I will not bother, as we have plenty of speculators on this site who could do this better than I, and with greater enthusiasm! Just my ten cents worth.

I see that Mr Homewood, no doubt with far nimbler fingers, has out-speeded me by a considerable margin, but fortunately our respective views seem to be fairly similar. I doubt that the RNZAF of the time could have managed to ferry that many aircraft right around the World without losing one or two en route. Of the eighty Mosquitos ferried over roughly the same route between 1946 and 1948, four were lost, and many others were damaged and/or had to await the arrival of spare parts to get them on the move again. Also NZ was very short of experienced aircrew in 1939/40, and had no air observers, and very few air gunners and wireless operators, although these were becoming available from the school at Ohakea by early 1940. In 1946/48 the RNZAF was again very short of experienced flying personnel, and we had to call on the RAF to provide many of the later pilots who ferried out the Mosquitos, and the RAF also provided minor maintenance and refuelling, and messing and accommodation all along the ferry route. Pre-war, these facilities had hardly been developed, and the RNZAF realized it had to help arrange for oil companies to deliver tankers to certain aerodromes in Malaya or Burma, and would also have to rely on Australian help as they came down through their area. However locating information on the planning of the 1939 ferry flights seems to be extremely hard to locate for some reason.

[madmac]

Given the relatively narrow window between the start of the war and the expected delivery of the first batch, was any of the ground support equipment / spares sent out

[davidd]

madmac,
Not certain if anything actually arrived in NZ pertaining to the Wellington, but the Wellington bomber was covered in the original set of technical (Flight Rigger) course notes prepared for RNZAF aircraft tradesmen in 1939 - I have a copy here at home (known as "Lecture 23", just 12 pages, and published in Sept 1939, 5,000 printed!) This publication describes all major aircraft types in RNZAF service (or just entering service) at that time (Oxford, Gordon, Vildebeeest/Vincent, Baffin - and the Wellington). The Wellington section is the biggest, 4.5 pages, 4 photographs and one technical drawing. Oxford details covered 4 pages. You can see that the Wellington was considered THE most important aircraft in the future of the RNZAF at this time, although the signal offering them to the British Govt had already been sent to UK.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

Did the Wellington ever get used in other tropical regions that the RAF were in, such as the West Indies or India/Burma?

I guess the wear on their skin would have been much the same as the wear on the other fabric types we took to Fiji, the DH60 Moth, DH86 Express, DH89 Dragon Rapides and Vickers Vincents, plus one Vildebeest. Was there any known issues with the fabric there for these types?

[Dave Homewood]

Actually I know it is a bit different but the Wellingtons were based in Egypt ad operated all around the Mediterranean and northern Africa as part of the Desert Air Force. Did those ones have issues with greater wear on their skins than those at home?

[davidd]

Probably more a matter of the difficulty in completely (or partially) refabricing an aircraft as large as a Wellington (or a Warwick) in fairly primitive conditions. I guess it could be done, if it was thought to be worth the trouble, but it was probably preferable to do this sort of work under some cover, something in short supply on desert conditions. This sort of work would probably be carried out at some sort of depot, where it would be inspected as to general condition. However you would probably have to talk to somebody who was there to know how the conversation would go and the decisions reached. Some of the big, pre-war hangars in Egypt would have had some largish hangars, ditto in India. If an aircraft was in need of a major inspection, and its general condition was poor, it might have been a good decision to write it off, particularly if it was an earlier model that was no longer in demand with operational units. Just a few thoughts.
David D

[30sqnatc]

Jun 26, 2019 22:49:58 GMT 12 madmac said:

Given the relatively narrow window between the start of the war and the expected delivery of the first batch, was any of the ground support equipment / spares sent out

The bombs and bomb trollies used with Hudson in Guadalcanal were British versions. I wondered if they were originally ordered for the Wellingtons?

[phasselgren]

99 and 215 Squadrons RAF operated Wellington bombers over Burma from April 1942 until November 1944 when Liberators replaced the Wellingtons. I found no comments about problems caused by the climate in The Wellington Bomber by Chaz Bowyer.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Peter.

[davidd]

Remember that everyone operating Wellingtons anywhere in the world just KNEW that the condition of the fabric covering the airframe had to be closely watched as the months and years went by, as a large failure of the mainplane or tail surfaces covering could result in disaster. This monitoring would last throughout the life of the aircraft, and was just something additional for fabric covered aircraft that was not really necessary on all-metal aircraft (although many of these did in fact have fabric covered control surfaces which likewise had to be watched as they aged, as well as some aircraft with large areas of fabric on their wings, such as Catalinas and F4U Corsairs). All-wood and fabric aircraft like the Mosquito, Domine, Ansons (OK, steel fuselage frame), Oxfords and the like had also to be watched carefully as they aged, and decisions would have to be made about their future if they were left out in the rain for extended periods and showed signs of water damage and/or weakening of glued areas, something which was first noticed in WW1 when practically all aircraft were wood and fabric. However by later in WW2, superior glues were in widespread use. So it was not really an unexpected or dangerous feature inherent in fabric-covered aircraft which were often left out in the weather for extended periods, it was simply something to be always borne in mind by maintenance personnel. When Mosquitos were sent to the Far East later in WW2 it was considered a bit experimental, although generally they performed pretty well in the conditions, so long as sensible precautions were observed. Immediately postwar, as the RNZAF was delivering its own Mosquitos right around the world, the RAF suddenly found that a lot of its Mosquitos still in the Far East were suffering badly from the effects of water gaining access into the airframes, and all such aircraft were grounded to undertake a major inspection programme, with particular emphasis on the wooden control surfaces and flaps. The RNZAF aircraft were also affected by this scare, as many of our aircraft had been left outside in the UK. The NZ Govt then took great pains to see that our Mosquitos were kept under proper cover during the rest of their lives, including all the reserve aircraft.

[fwx]

Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion (away on holiday) but it's one that I find fascinating.

As pointed out above, the first flight of six aircraft was due to arrive in NZ at the end of October 1939, and the subsequent Flights (each of six) to arrive approx. February, April, October and December 1940.

So there would only have been six Wellingtons in New Zealand in the time frame you are talking about. Too few and too far to return them to England, I think.

Their original purpose included support of Australia and Singapore so it's possible that they may have been sent up to Singapore in 1942, although doubtful how effective only six aircraft would have been. Probably less than six by then, with attrition and no spare airframes. And by then the Wellington had been found to be no match for fighters, generally restricted to night operations in Europe. More likely I think that they would have been retained in their maritime reconnaissance role down here.

No matter how many made it to NZ, there was also an issue with their performance. They were Mark 1 Wellingtons with ineffective Vickers front and rear gun turrets with very limited maneuverability and a ventral "dustbin" turret that was highly impractical. The Mark 1s were virtually obsolete by the time war was declared and I doubt many, if any, were used on war operations. The Mark 1a was a significant improvement with decent Nash & Thompson turrets and a strengthened undercarriage.

New Zealand's Wellingtons would have arrived minus armaments (removed for the ferry flights) and probably would have required significant modification to bring them up to some form of combat readiness.

Great thread, thanks!

[davidd]

fwx,
Your conclusions I generally agree with, but it had already been decided NOT to send the Mk.IA's to NZ, presumably because of the inferior turrets (and possibly incorporation of other, unspecified mods, as well as replacement turrets). This decision to retain the original six aircraft in UK had already been made by 15/8/39 when S/L Sidney Wallingford, NZ Liaison Officer in London, wrote to the Air Secretary in Wellington, NZ (letter received in NZ 8th Sept 1939), to effect that the crews and aircraft to be sent out as the "First Mobile Flight" comprised aircraft NZ306 to 311, and were still scheduled to leave the UK on 1st October 1939. Unfortunately the file on the planned ferry flight seems not to have survived, so it is very difficult to learn much else about these long-ago, and ultimately abortive plans. However the 2nd Mobile Flight was scheduled to form in UK on same day as the 1st Flight departed. By 14th September, Air Ministry notified the NZLO in London (who promptly informed Wellington) of the cancellation of the Ferry flights, and said that all officers posted to existing Wellington squadrons in UK for training "with a view to transfer for Second Flight, have returned to RAF duties. Transfer completed only for those appointed for First Flight, date for which you have been advised." It was soon noted (letter dated 29/9/39) that many officer members of the First Flight were now out of pocket, having obtained khaki drill kit in preparation for the Ferry Flight through tropical areas en route to NZ, "and it would be appreciated if early consideration could be given to granting them the 10 pounds recommended." Four of the NZ officers remaining at Stradishall in the UK in January 1940 (A A N Breckon, W H Coleman, J N Collins and F J Lucas), who had been transferred to the RNZAF in June 1939, later applied to transfer back to the RAF once the Ferry Flight was cancelled, but eventually withdrew their applications to transfer to the RAF so they could remain members of RNZAF, although still serving with the NZ Squadron. It is not known why they wished to remain in RNZAF, but they must have had their reasons. Incidentally, the tropical kit mentioned above, not only applied to the officers, but to the airmen as well. It was also pointed out that officers were required to obtain "two suits, drill, with shorts and helmets imperative", but that it was considered "not necessary" for them to obtain tropical mess kit. This was all according to normal RAF dress regulations for officers in peacetime.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

I still think there's no way any would have gone to Singapore after Japan's entry into the war in December 1941, because the primary role of the GR Squadrons was New Zealand's defence, with secondary role being some of our Pacific neighbours like Fiji and Tonga which had no air defence at that time.

The RAF, Royal Navy and RAAF had enough bombers there in my opinion, with Hudsons, Beauforts, Blenheims, Vildebeests, Swordfish, Albercores, etc. It was better numbers of quality fighters that they needed desperately.

Had there been a need for more GR bombers in Singapore why did we not send Hudsons there instead of Fiji?

Also look what happened to the US bombers in the various Asian bases, they were pretty useless against the invasion force and mostly got destroyed on the ground.

[fwx]

Thanks DavidD and DaveH!

The thirty Wellingtons ordered by NZ were all Mark 1s - there were no Mark 1as in the order.

Of the first 'batch' of six intended for delivery to the New Zealand Squadron at Marham, for some reason only five arrived, and of those, four were dual-control. There is a photo of NZ 300's cockpit which proves that she was built, and that she was also dual-control, but she hadn't been delivered to Marham by the time war broke out, and going by the Flight Authorisation Book, never was.

I presume (but have no proof) that the dual-control functionality was the reason that the first five a/c were to be retained in England, for training of the subsequent flights, with the next batch of six to be flown out to NZ as the "1st Mobile Flight".

NZLO S/L Sid Wallingford confirmed suspension of the Wellington order on the 4th of September, the day after war was declared, with the exception of some spares and consumables that would be required to service the five already received.

Newspaper reports say that the route was to have been via Singapore and Sydney. Bill Coleman, one of the pilots, says in a letter home that they were to leave on October 1 and "taking our time and nursing the engines" expect to fly in to Ohakea from Sydney on about the 26th.

Wallingford had prepared "Agreements" covering the transfer of New Zealand officers on Short Service Commissions in the RAF to five-year commissions in the RNZAF and sent these to S/L "Buck" Buckley on 23 August.

When war was confirmed and the ferry flight was cancelled, several officers refused to sign their Agreement. Their concerns appear to have been around loss of seniority and career opportunities within the RAF - after all, they had given up their RAF careers on the basis of ferry flights and going home. Now there was the prospect of being members of the RNZAF dispersed amongst RAF squadrons.

There were some pay disparities that Buckley summarises in a memo - the RNZAF officers were paid significantly more than their RAF counterparts, but this seems largely due to special allowances paid while on "special duty" with the RAF in the UK - these may have stopped when war broke out.

Wallingford mentions the non-signings in a letter on the 19th of September 1939 and uses quite strong terms of disapproval, suggesting that the RAF may not honour their SSCs should the war end quickly, and that they may have already lost their previous seniority. He warned "If the agreements are not signed there is a risk that they will become "nobody's children" with all the consequences."

Five of the officers (Breckon, Coleman, Collins, Lucas, Williams) held out and in fact took this a step further by lodging applications to transfer back to the RAF. Letters went back and forth attempting to dissuade them for another four months; things seem to have got quite tense!

This was not resolved until 9 February 1940 when the five finally withdrew their applications "owing to the severe conditions imposed" by the Air Ministry.

These had included:

- refund of all Air Ministry gratuities received during the time with the RNZAF
- time with the RNZAF to be treated as leave without pay
- applicants cannot be posted to their old units
- applicants would not be eligible for re-transfer to the RNZAF during hostilities

So they didn't want to stay with the RNZAF - they were forced to!

Cheers, Chris

[madmac]

I saw recently a suggestion that the name Wellington may have been in part due to the New Zealand order, any one know if this is true

[Dave Homewood]

Very interesting Chris. Thanks.

[fwx]

Hi madmac,

I saw that reference on the Air Vectors website, that the aircraft was named for Wellington, New Zealand.

Other (likely more credible) sources say it was named after Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

[Bruce]

Jul 2, 2019 16:58:49 GMT 12 madmac said:

I saw recently a suggestion that the name Wellington may have been in part due to the New Zealand order, any one know if this is true

Its not entirely improbable - the Canberra was named in expectation of an Australian order.