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Post by shorty on Sept 18, 2008 14:33:42 GMT 12
Went to many memorable parties at Monty Armstrongs flat at the top of Kyber Pass Rd, Dave Graham I last came across at Air Nelson when I was with Mt Cook (about 12 years ago)
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Post by contourcreative on Sept 22, 2008 10:12:15 GMT 12
Hi all I attach an image(ex whites) showing the corner of the Pan Am building and the Civil Aviation building circa 1940's. Compared to the Art Deco Air terminal buildings of USA, this is...umm..very functional:-) We are still interested in any pics of this building etc as I would like to make some indigenous model kits and as this appears to be NZ's first Air Terminal, this will have to be it. I have an Auckland Harbour Board Blueprint feature Mechanics Bay which I am illustrating in vector graphics which I will post shortly. But with designing any models you can never have enough images...Incidentally the architecture reminds me very much of Rose Bay, Sydney structure. Note the little deck for personnel to sun themselves while waiting fro the Flying Boats. I assume the two poles are flag poles. Any idea what flew from them? (National Ensign - obviously). Did TEAL have a company flag? Cheers Terry
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Post by shorty on Sept 22, 2008 11:01:58 GMT 12
One of the flags was very possibly the NZ Civil Aviation Ensign. (Very similar ccolours to the RNZAF ensign but with the Southern Cross in place of the roundel)
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Post by contourcreative on Sept 22, 2008 11:25:47 GMT 12
NZ Civil Aviation Ensign...that sounds very plausible. Thanks for that...As with our other building models (Croydon, Witchita etc.) we focus on designing 3D facades so the action area - in the case of land based aircraft - the 'apron'..is the focus and the whole setup is ergonomic from a space point of view. I'll probably design this in 1/144 simply to fit everything in. I've had another look at the AHB plan I have and it doesn't seem to resemble what is actually there (or rather WAS there) which is a bit of a disappointment..
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Post by hairy on Sept 22, 2008 18:42:43 GMT 12
This Ensign? Seen here flying over one of the Empire class flying boats. And a couple more overheads.
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 13, 2008 11:57:40 GMT 12
Hi Just got this very useful picture posted another Forum and gives a good view of the terminal building. The image was taken in July 1940. Note the Orange on the Shorts S30...Still need more pictures of this if I can make it into a diorama model kit...so any ideas of dimensions would be appreciated although probably a forlorn request I guess...
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Post by stu on Oct 13, 2008 15:18:16 GMT 12
Hi Terry,
is there some clever mathematical way of using a known measurement such as the wingspan of the S30 and - taking into account perspective - establishing the size of everything else?
Not sure if that's any help or not.
Cheers, Stu.
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Post by amitch on Oct 13, 2008 15:26:37 GMT 12
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Empire#Specifications_.28Shorts_S.23.29S.30 : Passenger and mail flying-boat, powered by four 890-hp (664-kW) Bristol Perseus radial piston engines, Derivative of S.23. Nine built. Specifications (Shorts S.23) General characteristics * Length: 88 ft (26.82m) * Wingspan: 114 ft (34.75 m) * Height: 31 ft 9¾ in (9.70 m) * Wing area: 1,500 ft² (139.35 m²) * Empty weight: 23,500 lb (10,659 kg) * Max takeoff weight: 40,500 lb (18,370 kg) * Powerplant: 4× Bristol Pegasus radial engines, 920 hp (696 kW) each ie: the wingspan is 114ft and if you assume the people in the photo are around 5 foot 10, this will give you some scale to start with.
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 13, 2008 17:28:49 GMT 12
Hi Gents
Thanks for the scale advice - this is usually what it comes down to with these historic buildings. Door frames are a great measurement as well. FYI I'll make a 3/D facade of both the buildings and provide some kind of backdrop as I've done with the Croydon Airport building. It took quite a long time but eventually got from the Croydon Airport Society an accurate floor plan of the building. Wichita was easier, but the Dearborn Passenger air terminal photos (Thanks Henry Ford) involves some serious outlay of money for which I will have to work up to. Other buildings under design include El Paso, New Orleans, and Grand Central. All very nice art deco structures...This passenger terminal is...umm...somewhat utilitarian but it is ours and I'll probably scale it back to 1/144 on reflection as it will not just suit our designs but for the 'plasticos' among you, there is the Airfix Boeing Clipper and Welsh Model Flying Boats S.30 also in 1/144. And as always there is the issue of space...the final frontier for any model maker :-)
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 13, 2008 17:30:00 GMT 12
BTW...did any of you notice the lawn in front of those buildings?? NICE
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 13, 2008 18:48:47 GMT 12
I had no idea the TEAL Short Empires had red on top of their wings. Amazing. Do you know who the photographer was and if there are other coloured photos like this around?
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 14, 2008 6:27:22 GMT 12
Hi Dave
From the response on the forum (Wings of Peace) and there are some real experts there, I would say surprise all around, but adds a bit of colour to an otherwise (yawn) aluminum model. I suspect applied only during the war years naturally. I suppose I could sell a kidney and harass the Air Logistic Archives...but what a great shot this is, and no I have no idea if there are any others but wouldn't it be great if there were? Anyway forget about the airplane's for a sec guys and note the building complex, with mown lawn. I'm trying to get a good pic of the terminal entrance which seems to have made some concession to art deco. I'll see if I can post that plan I scored from the Auckland Harbour Board bureacrats some time today...
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Post by shorty on Oct 14, 2008 8:32:24 GMT 12
I am a little bit dubious about the colours in that photo. Do we know if it is an actual colour photo or is ia a photo that has been coloured? I know that I had a wedding photo of me that had been coloured and there were several in accuracies perpetuated by the company that did it. If it is a "colourised" photo the actual colours could very well have been done by somone who had never actually seen the place, hence a slight difference in colour around the buildings could have been thought to have been grass and coloured accordingly. By the same criteria, knowing that the Pan Am aircraft had red panels on the wings the person may have logically thought that the S 30 had it to, especially if he outer panels showed as a slightly different shade in the original black and white photo.
Food for the thought?
I thought so as I have never heard of red panels on S 30 wings before, They went with the red/white/blue stripes under the registration. Also bear in mind that the Pan Am aircraft belonged to a country that was neutral until December 1941 and the panels could have been part of the neutrality markings which were not applicable to NZ aircraft.
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 14, 2008 9:08:44 GMT 12
The photo has not been recoloured....it's just too good for that. The giveaway is the water BTW. Also, to eliminate those nagging doubts, here is a picture in B&W showing the red/orange patches on the Shorts S30...Looks like a whole bunch of guys with cameras also. I would say that these are US photos but will try and find more... Cheers Terry
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Post by Bruce on Oct 14, 2008 9:33:19 GMT 12
The other thing is, is the S30 Silver or White overall? I have seen various accounts from historians, and the aircraft certainly were silver when delivered. The colour picture does show quite a difference between the colour of the S30 and the Boeing, but due to the angles and the way the sun is hitting them its not conclusive - the red wingtips however are quite a surprise!
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 14, 2008 10:00:26 GMT 12
Thanks Bruce...Yep it looks white when compared to the Clipper...and would be consistent with what I'd heard about these birds.
I'd say that these are US pictures taken when the clipper was 'in town' and the pics haven't made it down until the wonders of the internet and forums of enthusiasts (like this one).
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 14, 2008 10:17:03 GMT 12
I cocncur that it looks like the coloured photo is genuine 1940 colour and not retouched from b&w. I also think the Empire is white with red panels and I wonder if the panels were a safety measure in case they were forced down mid-ocean and searchers were looking for them.
At this time, mid-1940, these aircraft were being regularly commandeered by the RNZAF for long range reconnaissance patrols so technically this seems to be the right scheme for your RNZAF model collection Bruce.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 14, 2008 10:25:35 GMT 12
Note on the wet apron where the Empire is docked in the coloured shot there are thre round patches, would they be fuel tanks? Also there's a picket fence bisecting the areas of the NZ dock and the US dock, were the passengers of each kept seperate and processed in different buildings?
I also note how large the hangar is but they didn't used to take the Empires out of the water there to my knowledge so would that just be a freight terminal rather than maintenance hangar?
When did the Pan Am Clippers stop coming to Auckland out of interest?
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Post by contourcreative on Oct 14, 2008 10:36:57 GMT 12
And here's the full picture. Note the Flying Boat on the far right
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Post by shorty on Oct 14, 2008 10:39:17 GMT 12
That last shot appears in thge Golden Age book (page 33) and is credited to the A N Breckon Collection. Interesting also is the photo of AMA and AMC at anchor. AMC has the stripes under the rego and 2/3 way up the rudder but AMA doesn't. Flying boat Clippers stopped in Dec 41 when the Pacific ops were transferred to the US Naval Air Transport Services.
The picket fence would have been to keep the passengers who had cleared Customs etc seperate from the rest of the rabble. It would be rare for passengers to be boarding NZ and US boats at the same time. Seems strrange that there would be grass in front of the large door in the hangar/shed?
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