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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 21, 2008 15:07:01 GMT 12
Today I interviewed Mr Charles Rice who was a Machine Tool Setter and Operator with No. 2 General Reconnaissance Squadron and No. 12 Servicing Unit during WWII. He was telling me about how after the war about every four years No. 2 GR Squadron held reunions at Nelson, it eventully got to it that each time there was a reunion there was a fatal crash attached to it, two of them air crashes, and people stopped going due to the fact they thought it might happen again.
He said the first crash was one of the squadron pilots while at Nelson decided to borrow an Aero Club aircraft and something happened and he crashed into the harbour. He was killed.
Charles said the next reunion three ex-2GR members flew down from Manaia in Taranaki. On their return the pilot's usual thing was to circle round his farmhouse so his wife knew they were back and she'd drive down to the aerodrome to pick them up. On this occasion something went wrong and they hit a macrocarpa hedge and all three were killed.
I have no dates or names for either of these two crashes but Charles said the last reunion was in June 1963. He has a newspaper cutting from the 3rd of June 1963 about the reunion that he will send me. I think it was this one when the three chaps were killed and if so logic tells me the harbour crash was 1959.
Does anyone here have further details of the aircraft, date, names of those killed, circumstances?
Thanks.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 18, 2009 11:38:10 GMT 12
I am still no further advanced in trying to discover the circumstances of these alleged crashes, and wonder if there is any list online of fatal NZ air crashes year by year? I may be able to work them out if there is. Can anyone point me to such a list please?
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Post by fletcherfu24 on May 19, 2009 21:53:37 GMT 12
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 19, 2009 22:05:41 GMT 12
Seems a bit early for Dave's guy. The only 1959 crash that could conceivably fit is Valet Service (Nelson) Ltd. Tiger Moth ZK-AOY which crashed Hamama, Nelson, 1Mar59. Anyone with local knowledge know if that's near the sea?
Cessna 172C ZK-CCE New Plymouth AC Cr Kaupokonui, nr Hawera, 11.20am 5Jun63?
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 19, 2009 23:03:07 GMT 12
Thanks chaps. Can anyone confirm if these crashes were fatal?
As far as sticking rigidly to the four year rule I'd be careful, after all he was going by memory and the memory of an 80+ year old isn't always spot on.
I have a news report on what I think must have been their first No. 2 Squadron reunion by the way it's written, and though the piece didn't have the date attached when the cutting was kept, it mentions a key clue, it mentions the pinging sound of Sputinik - so it has to have been post-launch date which was 4th of October, 1957. So maybe that first reunion was indeed 1959 and the Tiger Moth ZK-AOY is the first crash? But I need to know who the pilot was and if he died to confirm.
Google Maps shows Hamama being a little south and inland from Takaka. However it's possible Charles was told the crash was Tasman Bay area and he assumed it was in the sea.
National Archives seems to have a report on that Cessna crash and has the name Leon Johnson but that's not a name I recognise from the squadron sadly, and it doesn't indicate online if it was a fatal crash with three aboard. Kaupokonui is reportedly two miles from Manaia so I think we're definately onto something. I might have to write to the Taranaki newspaper or musuem and get them to check the news for that date for more details.
This has at least given me a little more substance to the story. Thanks again.
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Post by fletcherfu24 on May 19, 2009 23:50:14 GMT 12
Just looking through Taranaki cemetary records,3 Johnsons all appeared to have died on the same day.Must have been a family tragedy.
Johnson Frederick Arthur Horder Manaia Burial Returned Service Association 05/06/1963 JOHNSON Len 078D Jun 5 1963 JOHNSON Glen 016D Jun 5 1963
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 0:12:37 GMT 12
Thanks very much, I think you've nailed it there. What a tragedy, very sad indeed.
So Fred Johnson, beig buried in an RSA plot, must have been the squadron member, and perhaps he took his sons or brothers or something along to the reunion.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 0:55:05 GMT 12
I have emailed the Puke Ariki museum at Taranaki and hope they can find more detail.
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Post by shamus on May 20, 2009 10:59:49 GMT 12
Dave, what I suggest you do is contact the 'Office of Air Accident Investigation, Ministry of Transport, Wellington' This office produces reports on all fatal air accidents in NZ and will no doubt have these reports on their files. I have many of their reports going back to the 60s but not the ones you require.
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Post by Bruce on May 20, 2009 11:07:58 GMT 12
Does OAAI still exist? I thought it became TAIC years ago? CAA may have the historical reports on file somehere
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Post by shamus on May 20, 2009 11:19:35 GMT 12
I am certain the office still exists but probably under another name. Ministry of Transport or CAA, will be able to help i'm sure.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 11:25:27 GMT 12
I emailed the Golden Bay Museum last night too and have heard back already. The nice lady there has found a 1959 report on the Tiger Moth crash and is posting it to me, so I''ll wait till that arrives before going further there. Thanks for the advice on the other agencies. I'll keep those in mind.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 16:25:32 GMT 12
For the record, the Office of Air Accidents became the Crown entity called the Transport Accident Investigation Commission in 1990 according to the Government website
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 16:49:00 GMT 12
I have further discovered that the squadron's first reunion was held in Nelson in 1950, so the report that mentions Sputnik cannot be from the first ever reunion.
There was also a reunion held in 1960, and the next one after that was (I think) the last one which was held on the 1st of June 1963.
There were no doubt others between 1950 and 1960. If anyone has further details I'd love to know. It throws open the earlier crash to a few different dates though.
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 20, 2009 18:36:15 GMT 12
I am beginning to suspect that the Tiger crash was not ZK-AOY. The incident does not appear to have been fatal - adfserials note "Crashed and destroyed by fire at Hamana, 4 miles from Takaka on 01 March 1959. Pilot uninjured but passenger suffered from burns." However, I cannot find any write-off Tiger Moth crash in the Nelson area for 1960. Anyway, here is a pic of that Tiger: and interestingly Jeff Pyle has a pic of the wreckage at his website www.jeffpylenz.com/Cessna ZK-CCE certainly seems to be the one involved in 1963, at Bell Block 6Apr1963
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 20, 2009 20:02:44 GMT 12
I'll see what comes from that article which the Golden Bay Museum is sending but I too suspect maybe the accident was 1960 rather than 1959 now.
Note that the crash wasn't necessarily a Tiger Moth (unless that's all the Nelson Aero Club had at the time?)
I checked out that TAIC site but sadly their online reports only go back to 1988.
Fingers crossed that Puke Ariki get back to me regarding the 1963 crash.
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Post by fletcherfu24 on May 20, 2009 21:54:58 GMT 12
I wonder what super top secret information is contained in old accident reports that they need to be withheld for 70 years??.. Especially since they've already been published and distributed and most of them are just incident reports of minor fender benders.......very strange
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Post by shamus on May 21, 2009 11:26:13 GMT 12
Hi Pool Guy. They may be referring to the actual file which may have some personal information in it The reports however have been published for every fatal accident ( I know because I have lots of them going back to the 1960s). Although they only have online ones from 1988 the previous ones should be available in the old printed form and if I wanted one would ask for a photo copy if their are none of the original printed copies left.
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Post by shamus on May 21, 2009 11:59:27 GMT 12
Just for the information, here is the first page of an Accident Report of Airtourer ZK CWB in which it states, 'Released as a Public Document.' All reports carried this or words to that effect.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 21, 2009 15:19:20 GMT 12
What does it cost to get a report Shamus?
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