Lets Rescue Our Citizens

[madmac]

Given the vast size of the NZDF assets I would have thought the week brief ( or what ever it was) to the defense ministers staff would have listed where assist that big where.

Another possible reason for the hoopla could be a reflection of the PM previous employment in an industry where yelling at people tends to be favorite problem solving method (there was a company we are all familiar that went under because the managing director wouldn't giving any one the power to change things but yelled at them about the lack of improvement).

Its probably just the result of the reality of the job sinking in (resources verse the country's problems).

It could possibly be an issue with the insurance on ANZ's leased aircraft as to why they can't fly into Thailand.

[ErrolC]

Dec 3, 2008 21:27:19 GMT 12 beagle said:

The campaign for what ??

The c130's are being upgraded, the 757's are almost ready.
Are you thinking about us getting new aircraft or something.

Well any suggestions of future "money saving" by delaying decisions (or their implementation) will presumably be met with reminders of what the result can be (the B757 upgrades were originally meant to be done before the Herc's started, right?)
Also, doing design and planning on the cheap normally isn't worth it (Project Protector).

[Dave Homewood]

Dec 3, 2008 21:37:22 GMT 12 madmac said:

Given the vast size of the NZDF assets I would have thought the week brief ( or what ever it was) to the defense ministers staff would have listed where assist that big where.

[beagle]

Dec 3, 2008 21:51:47 GMT 12 ErrolC said:

Dec 3, 2008 21:27:19 GMT 12 beagle said:

The campaign for what ??

The c130's are being upgraded, the 757's are almost ready.
Are you thinking about us getting new aircraft or something.

Well any suggestions of future "money saving" by delaying decisions (or their implementation) will presumably be met with reminders of what the result can be (the B757 upgrades were originally meant to be done before the Herc's started, right?)
Also, doing design and planning on the cheap normally isn't worth it (Project Protector).

I am pretty sure the upgrades were all planned to coincide with each other. The 757's being back in service before the NZ (Safe Air ) ones started. The first 757 would have been avaliable but due to by the sound sof it, it has had to be away for a C check in the states. If this had blown up a month earlier or later then there probably would have been a 757 ready willing and certainly bale to fulfill the task.

[nige]

www.whaleoil.co.nz/?q=content/john-armstrong-key-did-right-thing-just-few-steps-late#comments

A right-wing bloggers view of the 'political' situation surrounding the 757 issue etc. Has link to the Herald's John Armstrong column from today, quite an interesting piece by Armstrong I thought. www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10546214&ref=rss

[ErrolC]

Dec 3, 2008 23:03:33 GMT 12 beagle said:

I am pretty sure the upgrades were all planned to coincide with each other. The 757's being back in service before the NZ (Safe Air ) ones started. The first 757 would have been available but due to by the sound sof it, it has had to be away for a C check in the states. If this had blown up a month earlier or later then there probably would have been a 757 ready willing and certainly bale to fulfill the task.

My memory of the initial plan at the time of purchase of the B757s was that their cargo doors etc would be done before the Hercs dropped out. Then there were delays in putting the B757 contract.

Can someone more informed let us know if the suggestion that the first B757's maintenance should have been done while it was being refitted is reasonable, or uninformed twaddle?

[30sqnatc]

Dec 3, 2008 21:23:23 GMT 12 30sqnatc said:

This 'unavailability' is a brilliant move to gain the governments attention. Stage one of the campaign complete

Conspiracy Theorist

Stage two achieved - realisation that two Boeings are insufficient.

Conspiricy Theorist

[Kenny]

I remember the arguments about how all we have is a RNZAF transport service.. now we dont even have that hahaha

Joking..

But seriously though i like that comment on the blog
www.whaleoil.co.nz/?q=content/john-armstrong-key-did-right-thing-just-few-steps-late#comments

"What the f*** is wrong with
Submitted by itsatrap on Wed, 2008-12-03 23:18.

What the f*** is wrong with the Kiwis who are stuck in Thailand?

If they can’t make it back under their own initiative, they shouldn’t be allowed back into our country.

Pathetic!"

[philip]

People have lost the ability to look after themselves. I recall once taking my family to Sydney to stay with friends. They dropped us off at the airport to fly home but all flights were cancelled due to Ruapehu blowing it's stack. It was lateish in the evening and I didnt want to bother my friends to pick us up so we took an airport shuttle across to a nearby hotel. When we arrived there was a queue of several hundred people looking for rooms. Fark this, I thought. Quickly got out my cellphone, got directory to put me through to the hotel, made a booking over the the phone, walked up to the reception desk and a few minutes later we were tucking into room service whilst the queue downstairs got longer and longer. And travel insurance paid for it all. Make the best of a bad situation and use your head.

Got stuck in Queenstown in the middle of winter for a few days a while back too. These people would expect the army to turn up with LAV's

[Dave Homewood]

Was it actually the people stuck there asking for the RNZAF to help though, or just Fugg Goff sticking his oar in?? I haven't seen anyone actually saying 'rescue us NZ, we're helpless'.

[philip]

No, these people wanted cash
www.stuff.co.nz/4780311a12.html

Michael Jenkins and Tessa Welsh told the Waikato Times they were due to fly out of Bangkok on November 27.

They had been stuck in the Thai capital with dwindling finances for five days but there had been virtually no assistance from the New Zealand embassy there, they said.

"Three of these days we have visited the New Zealand embassy in person, seeking information and guidance," Mr Jenkins said.

"We left our contact details, which included email and a Thai cellphone number, and were told that the embassy would release a statement to all those who had made contact, and provide updates, none of which has happened."

Only minimal information was distributed, "all of which is outdated and unreliable".

"We are sympathetic to their position and the nature of reliable information in Thailand, but we like many others feel completely forgotten about and ignored."

Mr Jenkins said the embassy had offered a NZ$200 allowance but the money would have been repaid on return to New Zealand.

"What a joke. As of yet we have received no financial assistance and are running up a large debt to keep ourselves going."

[Bruce]

Hasnt anyone heard of Travel insurance?

[phil]

Don't be silly, you can't expect people to take personal responsibility for these things.

[Calum]

At least it was Thailand and not somewhere really dangerous.

But it is a fair question for Key to ask, After all he's the PM and if he wants to use a 757 to air lift people out of somewhere, and there are none available then surely he's entitled to know why.

All this shows IMHO is that the RNZAF's air lift fleet is inadequate for the tasks expected of it(like the Helicopter fleet will be when NH-90 and A-109 come online, but that's for another thread).

Key should immediately authorise the purchase of another B757 and 2 more C-130's.

I guess the government could also have leased a AIrNZ aircraft to get these people out.

Still I do think that people are entitled to expect some assistance (perhaps not an airlift) from their country when something like this blows up, travel insurance doesn't cover these sort of things and until the Court sacked the PM there was no sign of the protesters letting the airport back to normal. If it was me I'd like to think the government would make some effort to get me out of there, maybe I'm out of touch.

[Dave Homewood]

I have always assumed that if the Government has warned its citizens not to travel to a country due to it being high risk, as was the case here, they were relinquishing any responsibility should something like this occur. Why elese would Foreign Affairs bother warning people if the travellers are not meant to accept responsibility for their own actions?

[sqwark2k]

Why did nobody suggest Air New Zealand as a passenger carrying alternative into one of the several other operating international airports in Thailand. Or did they? Can't imagine how the RNZAF got involved at all?

The government can't just order AirNZ to send aircraft whre they want unless it's a national emergency/war type event. They can however order the military around, as they are their toys to play with as they want. That's how the RNZAF got involved.

[oldnavy]

The government can't just order AirNZ to send aircraft where they want unless it's a national emergency/war type event. They can however order the military around, as they are their toys to play with as they want. That's how the RNZAF got involved.

Wasn't the issue here that the NZ Govt didn't have anything in the RNZAF they could order around? Somebody should have checked before going to the media. If you only have a few assets there is always a danger they won't be available when you need them. That's a price we all pay for living in small countries with limited spending coupons.

Being from the West Island, I make the comparison that QANTAS flew into Thailand and brought the stranded Aussies home. I reckon the thought process here is that the recovery of delayed tourists is not a military mission at all, even when two out of a number of airports have been closed by relatively passive civilian blockades. This mission clearly falls into the category of "a normal days work" for a body such as the national carrier.

Even though I am fairly sure charter would be completely within any govt bailiwick should the need arise outside a national emergency, I would have thought AirNZ owed something to your Govt and taxpayers having been so comprehensively bailed out the year you payed off your fast jets. Can't remember, but wasn't the bail out figure something like NZ$750 million? Happy to be corrected.

[Dave Homewood]

The suggestion made was they could do a lease charter of an Air New Zealand airliner, not 'order' it. Airliners do charter work for special operations like this. They even transport troops into war zones. I see no problem with the Government chartering a 747 for the job.

[vgp]

Lockheed C-130 Hercules is a 'flying Fridge' according to John.

tvnz.co.nz/view/video_popup_windows_skin/2363968?bandwidth=56k

[ErrolC]

Dec 4, 2008 7:43:24 GMT 12 ErrolC said:

My memory of the initial plan at the time of purchase of the B757s was that their cargo doors etc would be done before the Hercs dropped out. Then there were delays in putting the B757 contract.

Can someone more informed let us know if the suggestion that the first B757's maintenance should have been done while it was being refitted is reasonable, or uninformed twaddle?

Happened across the press release from when they were purchased in March 2003.

Q. Why replace them now?

A. The availability and reliability of the 727s has reduced significantly in recent years and New Zealand needs new aircraft. It was important to make a decision on this issue at the same time as a decision on the upgrade/replacement of the C-130H Hercules because of the linkages between the two capabilities and the need to maintain capabilities as the C130H are cycled through their upgrade programme.

...

Q. When will the 757s be in operation?

A. The first of the aircraft is due to arrive in New Zealand in mid-April, and will be available for tasking on arrival in a passenger configuration. The second aircraft is due to arrive in early June, in the same configuration. The cargo-carrying modifications will be completed in 2004.