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Post by baz62 on Mar 7, 2009 8:05:03 GMT 12
Thats outrageous! Hope they find these people and if they have any kind of conscience they should return what they desicrated. This is the kind of thing that went on in the Islands with people taking aircraft either whole or in pieces with out permission. And now making it nearly impossible for future recoveries.  |
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Post by fletcherfu24 on Mar 7, 2009 15:16:47 GMT 12
Whats the point of removing it?,the metals not worth hiring a chopper for the scrap value,the engines worthless after 60 odd years in the elements.There must be plenty of Devon parts still around if you need them.
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Post by phil82 on Mar 7, 2009 16:08:28 GMT 12
I'm not about to label the pilot of the red and white Hughes 500 of law-breaking at best, and very thoughtless act at worst, but he is, by the very nature of what he does for a living, an "aviation-type person" and surely it must have occurred to him that what he had been hired to do was dubious?
As for the people involved, I seriously hope someone lays a charge with the police, and they face them in court so we can all see what scurrilous bastards they are. The graves of the two pilots are still up there, near the wreck, and that, in my book, makes it a memorial! Anyone over Masterton way know of the operator of a red and white Hughes 500? Given the information I will personally advice the cops.
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Post by obiwan27 on Mar 7, 2009 20:55:58 GMT 12
Absolutely atrocious and as noted above the chopper pilot is an aviation person after all. It's the same as people stealing items from the wreck of the Titanic (admittedly on a much smaller scale) but the sentiment is still the same. Two guys lost their lives in that Devon and it should have been left alone.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2009 18:53:55 GMT 12
This is outragious, I hope they catch the people involved.
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Post by Tonys18 on Mar 8, 2009 22:08:13 GMT 12
Just finished reading this. Its sad to see what some people are doing these days to sites like this  . I hope they catch them. Pool guy is right, what is the point its not worth it. Could there be some person wanting parts for this plane? What goes around come around. Once again I hope they get caught. |
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Post by tbf25o4 on Mar 9, 2009 7:44:30 GMT 12
The removal of any crashed Air Force aircraft (no matter what vintage) is illegal unless the Air Force (i.e. the Crown has passed over the ownership of the aircraft)
There are procedures laid down for getting approval to remove total wreckage or even parts.
The other concern on this occasion is that the Devon is a grave site as the crew were buried nearby. Would these same persons enter a cemetery and remove headstones???
Paul
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Post by tbf25o4 on Mar 12, 2009 7:13:29 GMT 12
I see in the Dom Post today that the robbers of the Devon site were members of the SVAS at Masterton. I would have thought that as responsible museum people they would have checked out the ownership of the wreckage and the well known fact that it is a burial site, before raiding it to enhance their own collection!
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Post by phil82 on Mar 12, 2009 7:53:53 GMT 12
I read that, and to me it is a feeble excuse indeed from an organisation that is built around preservation of old aircraft. I don't accept the excuses offered ; they must have known full well that the aircraft was the property of the Crown.
Tu tut, Mr Williams!
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Post by Bruce on Mar 12, 2009 10:18:04 GMT 12
Totally unacceptable.
from past discussions with Former SVAS council members (who have left that organisation) I can well beleive the total ignorance of correct process. They described some decisions made by "Enthusiasts" that make MoTaTs past sagas seem tame.
I guess now the engine is out of the bush, it should be displayed, but the rest must be left. Of course it will deteriorate - it deteriorated pretty quickly when the aircraft hit the hill.....
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Post by angelsonefive on Mar 12, 2009 11:57:33 GMT 12
I am a member of the SVAS but I will not defend their actions in this.
As has been said, they must have known that the aircraft, albeit a wreck, was and remains, the property of the Crown.
In what way, however, did the SVAS do anything that a succession of mindless memento hunters have not done over the years ?
DOC may claim to be outraged now, but what have they ever done to protect the crash site ? Has it been fenced off ? A notice board put up prohibiting interference with the wreck ?
In my opinion the Govt and the RNZAF have both been seriously at fault in this case.
The wreckage should have been cleared, and the remains of the pilots removed and re-interred with the proper military ceremony due to them years ago.
Granted, the logistics involved were formidable in the 1950's.
The Air Force was able to remove the wreckage of a wartime Oxford crash from the Tararuas by Iroquois some years back for the RNZAF Museum, so why could not the same sort of effort be made here ?
It is not too late.
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Post by phil82 on Mar 12, 2009 12:45:21 GMT 12
I am a member of the SVAS but I will not defend their actions in this. In what way, however, did the SVAS do anything that a succession of mindless memento hunters have not done over the years ? Without putting too fine a point on it, your defence of SVAS, while admirable, is utter bolleaux! What they did that others didn't, was hire a helicopter to systematically strip the wreck! I don't accept that an organisation such as SVAS would not consider ownership, and to now blame others for not shifting it is a feeble defence. Go to your room: Immediately!  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 12, 2009 13:11:21 GMT 12
There are some valid points being made here but let's not get too heated and fall out over this. The fact is now the authorities know who the thieves were and let's hope that the appropriate action is taken to sort this situation out, and make reparations.
I was not aware that this Devon and its deceased crew were still at the crash site till this issue came up. I agree with angelsonefive that it is very surprising that the RNZAF has not subsequently removed the wreckage, or at least buried it like the case of the NAC Dakota in the Kaimai Hills, and reinterred the crew to somewhere more accessible for families, etc. But whatever the decision process was in leaving it there, I don't think they are to blame for allowing the wreckage to be looted.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Mar 12, 2009 19:01:29 GMT 12
In my opinion the Govt and the RNZAF have both been seriously at fault in this case. The wreckage should have been cleared, and the remains of the pilots removed and re-interred with the proper military ceremony due to them years ago. I'm sure they were buried at the crash site with the approval of the families and authorities and with due ceremony and honours so lets not try and second guess the decisions that occured at the time. Paul |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Mar 12, 2009 19:38:27 GMT 12
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Mar 12, 2009 19:50:10 GMT 12
With regard to the graves of the airmen....there are actually quite a few graves scattered around the Tararua Ranges and in fact throughout many wilderness and backcountry areas of NZ. In earlier times, it was often the practice when someone died on a tramping or climbing trip in an area where it was very difficult to carry bodies out (before the days of helicopters) and where there were no suspicious circumstances involved in the death, for the persons who died to be simply buried where they had died. It would be really frowned on today, but in earlier times (right up until the 1960s) it was accepted practice. In many ways, it was no different to what still occurs in Tibet and Nepal on the slopes of Mount Everest.
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Post by mumbles on Mar 12, 2009 20:40:15 GMT 12
I'll admit to also being disappointed with SVAS's explanation. I'm frankly amazed it didn't occur to anyone to check whether or not the wreckage was still owned by anyone, or subject to removal restrictions. The response from SVAS seems incredibly naive almost to the point of straining credulidity.
To respond to an earlier post, the difference between SVAS and 'mindless momento hunters' is that the momento hunters aren't part of an established organisation that really should know better, and has a good reputation to lose.
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Post by phil82 on Mar 13, 2009 5:23:54 GMT 12
The helicopter company, Wairarapa Helicopters, have had their DOC concessions revoked. having in itially denied knowing anything about removal of wreckage. Yeah, right!
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Post by philip on Mar 13, 2009 11:51:39 GMT 12
Not a very nice situation. Both Tim and Tom Williams are directors of Wairarapa Helicopters Limited and the SVAS is not a registered charity. I can't see how you could justify such an act.
And given the millions spent recovering fallen soldiers from overseas I'd say the two airmen lay up there with the permission if not the wishes of the family
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 21, 2009 20:25:37 GMT 12
Plane wreckage to be kept intact By TANYA KATTERNS - The Dominion Post Last updated 05:00 21/04/2009 The families of two airforce pilots buried near their crashed plane on a windy hilltop in the Tararua Range have won their battle to have parts of the wreckage returned to the site. Last month, Wairarapa Helicopters and the New Zealand Sport and Vintage Aviation Society illegally removed the engine from the wreck of the RNZAF Devon plane that crashed 54 years ago. The Conservation Department immediately suspended the helicopter company's concessions to operate in department land until it was decided whether charges would be laid. Though the parts were intended to be used as a display at the Sport and Vintage Aviation Society's museum at Masterton's Hood Aerodrome, the families of the dead pilots would not agree to the plan. The company had now agreed to return the engine to the wreck site by the end of the month, and plans to revoke Wairarapa Helicopters' operating permit had been withdrawn, Conservation Department area manager Chris Lester said. The department had also decided against pursuing any prosecution. The Devon was on a training flight from Ohakea when it crashed on Shingle Slip Knob, near Mt Holdsworth, on February 17, 1955. Flight lieutenants Edward Casey, 38, and William Trott, 31, married men with three children each, were buried 100 metres from the site on a hilltop after their bodies were discovered three days later. Mr Lester said the decision on the future of the plane's parts was always going to be left to the families. "There was pretty strong feeling that what is left of the plane wreckage remains intact on the hill." The engine is expected to be returned after the deer-mating season finishes on April 25 and Tararua Forest Park is reopened to commercial helicopter operators. www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/central-north-island/2348377/Plane-wreckage-to-be-kept-intact
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. I hope they catch them. Pool guy is right, what is the point its not worth it. Could there be some person wanting parts for this plane? What goes around come around. Once again I hope they get caught.
