Ministers Launch Defence Review 09 Document

[oggie2620]

Given that we in the UK RAF are currently under the possible SDSR axe I sympathise.... By the way if the guy who carped about harking at times past read a book called Right of the Line by John Terraine he would see that sometimes reviewing the past and actually learning for it (which Governments of all colours dont seem to do) is a useful exercise.

[oldnavy]

so I guess if you not happy go live somewhere else.

This "loyal patriot" is telling you all to leave! IE: He just wants you Kiwis to give up!! At least I suggested you take US$1 million each off the yanks before you go!

The thing is, by your responses you are all proving you have not sold out...only he has...so is he a wind up? Did you guys plant him so I can abuse you more?

The Kiwi fighter pilots I have met all over the world in other people's air forces are all first rate and simply waiting for the opportunity to come home. They have only left because you let yourselves be talked down to by "sirbeanliike" REMFs, and they don't like it.

As I have said before, the options are stark. Give up and leave like sirbean advocates (from an apallingly disloyal and disrespectful position), or spend the money and become a country again.

[nige]

Sounds like you're trolling to me, sir bean!

The NZDF already does all that good stuff, eg peacekeeping, fisheries, transport, SAR etc.

You're basically advocating cutting the NZDF much deeper and further than any polly has ever before, probably to much less than one quarter of what is being spent now.

Now go off and prove you're not some greenie, peacenik troll.

[yogi]

oggie are you referring to me? I absolutely agree with you on that, the past has shown we should always maintain a small efficient acf.

sirbean, you my friend are obviously a total and utter troll
please crawl back under your rock.
thank you.

[obiwan27]

Aug 28, 2010 21:15:20 GMT 12 oldnavy said:

so I guess if you not happy go live somewhere else.

The thing is, by your responses you are all proving you have not sold out...only he has...so is he a wind up? Did you guys plant him so I can abuse you more?

I think oldnavy is onto us... see how we drew him into the discussion? lol ;-) Nice to have input from you sir, from someone who knows what they're talking about. Cheers and beers.

[corokid66]

Sir Bean – as Nige pointed out we do all those things. Peacekeeping is done under UNSC Chapter VI mandates, however due to the growing instability throughout our region and the world in general, UNSC mandates under Chapter VII have been more and more frequent and over the next 25 years the timeframe that this White Paper covers are more and more likely. They are called peace enforcement operations. What you essentially fail to understand is that UNSC mandates require a spectrum of contingencies that have to be planned for and appropriate capabilities sought to achieve it. All this UNSC stuff might seem very unsexy but it fundamentally underpins what a defence force such as New Zealand is all about.

The responsible approach is for a country like New Zealand to have a majority of capabilities to achieve all those good things that you want and a minority of capabilities that are combat capable. In our case it means the ability to deploy an infantry battalion component capable of operating in a UNSC Chp VII environment, a Maritime capability capable of operating at Chp VII which means in our case long range surface combatants and an air component capable of operating at the same Chp VII environment. That is why many of us realise that we have at present and in the years ahead a requirement for at least a second tier fixed wing multi-role air combat capability. Many of the people here also know the dire repercussions of what can happen to this wonderful country by not having such a capability. You need to understand that people like myself and most people here on Daves great website do not want F-22’s, Eurofighters, aircraft carriers, submarines, and flash helicopter gunships. What people like myself want is people like yourself and other New Zealanders is to understand a little of the complexity, capability requirements, and the rationale of what a practical and appropriate defence force requires. I sense that deep down Sir Bean, you know (if you are an intelligent person and not some ideolog) that maybe you are now doubting your original perceptions. But unlike the others I don’t want you to Foxtrot Oscar. I want you to stay and school yourself up. I want you to learn something and the penny eventually to drop.

Besides Sir Bean which one of these guys represents your views?

[kiwiscanfly]

Dear Mr Bean

I am currently living in Hong Kong and would just like to ask were your idea of not needing a ACF comes from as well as your view that seem to illustrate a region that is stable and has no risk of escalated conflict........... considering that from HONG KONG I can see military coups in Fiji, political and social unrest in Thailand and the Philippines both homes to radical terrorist groups with corrupt well armed unstable governments, Indonesia which as we know has had a small effect on us........cough cough "East Timor" cough, and to add to the list I had posted previously on this thread an article showing an overall increase in spending on defense right over the South Asia and Pacific region. Opp's wait I forgot the 100 small Spratly islands in the south china sea being contested by china and their ever growing navy claiming they have a right to these islands because of natural resources as well as the Paracel Islands!!!! and just one last thing Internal conflict in Malaysia. So do tell me Mr Bean what part of this is stable and presents no threat to NZ interest and regional stability?? And before you come back with telling me that i am lying or exaggerating look up all that i have just mentioned and in some cases you may be shocked how bad it is.

(would just like to add that I watch 8 bodies being unloaded from a plane that were killed in a bus hijacking in Philippines, one of the survivors lives here in my local town not a direct threat to NZ but an example of a ever growing unstable region.)

[Dave Homewood]

Out of interest, is RNZAF Station Ohakea's motto still "Defensio per Vires" (which when translated means "Defence Through Strength")??

It doesn't really seem appropriate nowadays, does it?

[sirbean]

Thanks guys for your imput I am as always impressed with your comments.
I have only stated how I feel the Government will go and that is they will not re-equipp an Air Combat Force this is how I see it.
New Zealand has an MMP electrol system and the current Government can govern without the need of another parties support....however as history has shown New Zealand voters after two terms get sick of those in power and vote for change during this period political parties to gain power need to "do deal"in order to regain or hold power and during these deals often there is a large amount of closed door dealing called "giving".
This current Government are not silly and show very good understanding of MMP with deals done with a range of parties including the Greens....this ensures that when the public get sick of them(and they will)they have partners in crime they can do a deal with to hold power.The opposition also have this ability to play these cards.
What I am saying is that to re-activate an Air Combat Force would be a major turn of policy and direction the same goes with a major Defence spend up and in the corridores of power where behind closed doors the power brokers do the business I dont see a lot of support for this with other political parties who do deals to their advantage(and their supporters)to support the Government.This is all the more important when numbers get tight and watch this over the next few years and you will see this happen and when it does the Government will do what has to be done in order to stay in power.
I am only saying that under an MMP system where Government need to rely on other parties to Govern this(an Air Combat Force) would be regarded as untenible and "death"to their future in the halls of power.
A spend up in Defence in New Zealand is over due in certain areas and as I have said I am not against this,but it will be a very hard sell area under an MMP system.There needs to be public debate...however I doubt thiswill ever happen and given the current world wide recession any Defence Force spending needs to be justified tenfold to the taxpayers and would most likely come out the expense to other areas of the defence force with trade offs(again power brokering).
Back when I first posted on here I stated that I hope the White Paper review will see the Macchis re-instated as an advanced trainer with the core duty of offering the army /navy fast jet training an area they lack training in right now.
The Macchis are still airworthy and still have qualified pilots and groundcrew to man them,and we own them out right.It's a waste of taxpayer money to dream of the "sale that will never come"when they are still costing us money just sitting there.I see no reason for these not to be put back into service,I also see no public dissatisfaction or political back lash from this either as the Macchi is not regarded as an out and out fighter jet.
However if you were to try and buy a fleet of second hand multi role fighters the reaction would be far differant and this would merely come down to sheer costs.
The public(voters)like what benefits them in the pocket...its the touchy feely thing that people vote on and a squadron of fighter aircraft(lease or outright buy)is not a vote winner.
However the Macchis are not an outright buy or lease as we own them,so its a soft sell as they are only regarded as a trainer of limited use,but there training value to all three services would be immeaurable in terms value.
To simply have an asset sitting there when everyone knows full well no sale will ever happen is tax payer waste in Defence.
I am also dead against up grading the Hercules they needed replacement with new aircraft...jeepers how many people upgrade there 1965 cars!
Again smart decisions not silly ones.
My points may churn people up but its the sell factor that Governments look at to voters and the back up partners.

[yogi]

No thats not what you said, you said you didnt think we needed an acf and the world was a stable place now you have completely changed your tune

save it troll.

[sirbean]

Grow up yogi
I said we dont need an Air Combat Force yes....its because the way our political system is that will not allow it...face it....its not a vote winner at all.
However getting the Macchis back on line is a soft sell....and if you put your glasses on you will see I have always said yes to getting the Macchis back....just understand that a bunch of multi role fighters will never be in this country again.
The political environment is not such that will allow it.

[yogi]

grow up?
Get a life mate, we all already know its not a vote winner, I even said in one of my previous posts public opinion and outright need drives policy, why do you think I put that?
we agree about the macchis, the macchis was not what I was getting at, it was the need for an ACF.
You said initially we dont need an acf, now you are saying it doesnt matter anyway because the pollies wont allow it, i.e you keep changing your tune rather than directly challenging peoples points on why an ACF is needed.

Your argument has been totally destroyed by a dozen individuals and now all you are doing is trolling for a reaction and this will be the last I give.

Your bridge awaits sirtroll

[sirbean]

Yogi I have a life and enjoy it most likely no differant than you.
My point on no Air Combat Force is that the political way of our country isdriven by vote winners...the biggest vote winner for National was cutting tax....the voters simply only care about whats in the back pocket for them,I am no differant,nor are you.
Forget about Air Combat its gone........the best any of us could hope for is the return to active service of the Macchi's and that is a long shot aswell.
Any major Defence moves could be easily overturned by a new Government down the track or pressure by colilition partners.
My views churn you up but you need to face it New Zealand will not be getting any fighter aircraft....its not a vote winner.

[Dave Homewood]

All right, cool it please. Enough of this ridiculous squabbling that gets no-one anywhere. Any more and I will close this thread.

[nige]

Time to bring out another Harry Enfield "red card" Dave!

[sirbean]

Understand Dave...its getting personal.
These guys think I am against our Defence which I am not....its just not a vote winner and as we know the politicians go with vote winners.
I am all for the Macchis back up and running,new Hercules.Simple!

[Dave Homewood]

Sirbean, you have made your views clearly, over and over. Please quit with it now.

Enough is enough.

[Chris F]

WOW this is a Hot debate!

[sirbean]

I am over it any way...its not to be decided on here but behind closed doors.

[kiwiscanfly]

well to all who have participated in the discussion on the last three pages it has been interesting but it will be within the next month that we find out what has been going on "behind Closed doors" and we shall soon see if we do gain the teeth the RNZAF needs and that could come in any respective form or if we see the politics take over again. Many here have already made predictions on what may be to come and I hope that there is a clear relationship between the Public consultation review of which i know people on this forum contributed to and what we then get from the white paper.