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Post by phil on Sept 12, 2009 16:01:01 GMT 12
What, the paddling pool? Or the five star accommodation?
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Post by horicle on Dec 12, 2017 17:24:15 GMT 12
With a little help from the following Forums
Return of Air Combat Force Backed An idea to re-instate the Combat Squadrons Question-Could the Combat Force be rebuilt? Air Combat Force Abolition. former Combat Wing status Starter pack for RNZAF Air Combat Wing! Air Combat Force Abolition.
Thoughts on a combat force
If this is ever going to happen the first step is a government policy requiring the appropriate capabilities to exist.
For that reason the overriding situation in this discussion is that it will never happen. The outcome is a complete failure - nothing - nil - a void of hope. Do not despair. Any other outcome is an improvement on the current situation.
So any step forward is a gain
What has made it worth writing this is that a practical airframe to bring about an RNZAF combat capability is now flying. Building up a lost capability is a long and painstaking process. The more complex the required end result the more time and pain involved (read finance).
Recall the functions the Skyhawks were there to do and identify those that currently our Air Force can not currently provide. We need a return to a Force with balanced capability.
The capabilities required include. The presence of force in a timely and accurate manner. Providing quick response reconnaissance. Assisting and directly proving surveillance. providing an Air Power component to sister services in their training exercises. Enabling our airmen (/persons) to maintain the necessary skills to do all these tasks. Training replacement personal in the relevant military skills. Basically doing what Air Power does best, getting there first.
To meet this magic vehicle, google ‘textron scorpion news’, or track down Air International magazine for November 2017 (Scorpion’s coming of age p28). At US$20M per copy we could damn near get there on the cake stall income. Ever come across a light combat jet with 2.5 cubic metres of internal bay space for ‘plug and play’ equipment fits (up to 3,500lb worth). One of the fits is the Wescam MX-25 electro-optical and infrared sensor. A better sensor than the P-8 carries according to one source.
Then when it is proven the Air Force can do the tasks it is time to talk about the desired heavy equipment and the Scorpion becomes a 'super' Macchi. Probably not really needed.
I will now climb back into my parallel universe where some things never happened. I will close the door because I don’t want a bloody great crowd barging in.
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Post by thelensofhistory on Dec 12, 2017 18:28:46 GMT 12
The only way the RNZAF 'combat arm' will return is in a war time emergency. In such an event all the voters who cheered on the guttering of the NZDF will be sending their kids to a draft board.
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hughw
Flying Officer
Posts: 58
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Post by hughw on Dec 12, 2017 19:16:12 GMT 12
As far as an RNZAF combat wing returning, most probably not. But as far as fighter jets returning to Ohakea, probably.
I say this because negotiations were under way under the National government to do a deal with Sinagpore to base RSAF F-15's at Ohakea with a trial training exercise held last September involving RSAF F-16D+'s training for a few weeks out of Ohakea. With the change in government and NZ First Ron Mark as defense minister it is in my opinion that this deal will likely go ahead. NZ First's defense policy include enhancing the combat capability of the RNZAF. Re-establishing an RNZAF combat wing would be very hard. But Ron Mark will likely jump at the opportunity to get the RSAF here in their F-15's permanently, especially considering his disapproval of the strikeforce disbandment. He even liked my comment on one of his Facebook posts where I said "don't forget to accept the Singapore F-15 deal".
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Post by snafu on Dec 14, 2017 4:51:50 GMT 12
As far as an RNZAF combat wing returning, most probably not. But as far as fighter jets returning to Ohakea, probably. I say this because negotiations were under way under the National government to do a deal with Sinagpore to base RSAF F-15's at Ohakea with a trial training exercise held last September involving RSAF F-16D+'s training for a few weeks out of Ohakea. With the change in government and NZ First Ron Mark as defense minister it is in my opinion that this deal will likely go ahead. NZ First's defense policy include enhancing the combat capability of the RNZAF. Re-establishing an RNZAF combat wing would be very hard. But Ron Mark will likely jump at the opportunity to get the RSAF here in their F-15's permanently, especially considering his disapproval of the strikeforce disbandment. He even liked my comment on one of his Facebook posts where I said "don't forget to accept the Singapore F-15 deal". I believe Ron Marks NZ Minister for Defence is pushing for the reestablishment of an ACF, with light trainer/light attack capability. I wish him luck
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 14, 2017 9:27:17 GMT 12
Considering this government is cutting funding to child cancer charities and to teachers, I doubt we're going to see them invest in combat aircraft any time soon.
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Post by kiwiredley on Dec 14, 2017 15:25:56 GMT 12
I was lucky to get a close look at the Scorpion a month ago, when Textron was demonstrating it to the Saudis. I work on Hawks in Saudi and the Scorpion was operating off our flightline for a week and then flew on to the Dubai Airshow. Its a big aircraft for its weight class, the cockpits are huge,especially when compared to the likes of the Hawk which are very tight. The straight wing stands out as sort being out of place with rest of the aircraft, I understand Textron are considering a more swept option for higher speed version even to the point where a customer could have the option to have the ability to re-role the airframe by holding spare wing sets and changing wings. I spoke with one of the Maintenance Techs and he said the aircraft is very reliable, mind you he would hardly say otherwise, and easy to support in that on this particular tour the Maintenance Team was 3 Techs travelling in support in the company Cessna Citation. I only observed it in Taxi and in Circuit and seemed a little slower than the Hawk, that straight wing in play I guess. Anyway an interesting Aircraft and concept but struggling for a buyer but has a lot of countries very interested according to the Textron guy I spoke with. I sort of get the the feeling everybody is a bit reluctant to be the Launch Customer. I think once they pick up a few customers and especially if they can get a contract with the US Airforce the sales will take off.
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Post by pepe on Dec 14, 2017 20:38:27 GMT 12
Considering this government is cutting funding to child cancer charities and to teachers, I doubt we're going to see them invest in combat aircraft any time soon. Absolutely correct. It's not going to happen with this coalition despite what previous personal comments the Defence Minister has made. Not to mention there is a wee budget issue for the Senior Service..... www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/346180/navy-budget-blowout-our-sailors-aren-t-safe
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Post by 30sqnatc on Dec 15, 2017 19:50:08 GMT 12
Considering this government is cutting funding to child cancer charities and to teachers, I doubt we're going to see them invest in combat aircraft any time soon. Absolutely correct. It's not going to happen with this coalition despite what previous personal comments the Defence Minister has made. Not to mention there is a wee budget issue for the Senior Service..... www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/346180/navy-budget-blowout-our-sailors-aren-t-safeThe problem is it is not the 'navy' budget. It is the whole NZDF capital acquisition budget that must fund the shortfall due to the Ministry misspend!
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Post by typerated on Dec 16, 2017 7:51:55 GMT 12
I love everyone's enthusiasm for this and the new transport and MPA. But one factor I have not seen mentioned is the lack of bums on seats. I understand the RNZAF is a long way short of crewing all the aircraft it has - not much point buying new airframes to sit on the ground?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 16, 2017 10:34:14 GMT 12
New aeroplanes will however attract new recruits.
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Post by snafu on Dec 16, 2017 10:37:18 GMT 12
The only way the RNZAF 'combat arm' will return is in a war time emergency. In such an event all the voters who cheered on the guttering of the NZDF will be sending their kids to a draft board. if it reaches that point its game over, while we are more efficient industrially the machines are more complex. In a full scale shooting war how the hell do you think that the RNZAF can pull a rabbit out of the hat and reconstitute an ACF. its going to take the best part of ten years before RNZAF becomes FOC in ACM full spectrum capability and that's with a lot of help from RAAF and USAF/USN pending aircraft selection.
lets look at a very recent example, the RN have a very long and proud history in maritime fast jet capability, as you know the last jets were flown off the Ark Royal in 2010 they expect a capability gap of 10 years. In that time have to try and maintain concurrency they have embedded flight crews with the French and Americans, all the while UK crews arte training to get to FOC(full operational capability) which is not expected til around 2024.
Also in contrast the RAAF is transitioning to F35A with 3 Squadron being the first to become operational, first aircraft arriving 2018 and hope to have IOC (initial operating capability) from 2021 and are expecting FOC in 2023 that's five years with a existing training structure in place.
if NZ was to become serious in the near future there is a real opportunity to leverage the support of the RAAF, once Canada have taken there 18 aircraft the next 18 should be for RNZAF, the RAAF should leave the structure in place with that becoming a NZ OCU as an interim capability leveraging the in place structure with a mix of RAAF and RNZAF pers until NZ can take over the running of the Squadron on its own merits all the while gaining experience using RAAF training pipeline. in the meantime once the interim capability is evolving with NZ becoming once again proficient within their trades and gain command experience a parallel program should be running to find a suitable aircraft to replace legacy Hornets. If you play your cards right there may be scope to join the RCAF in there legacy Hornet replacement program to decrease cost if the chosen aircraft is compatible with RNZAF conops. But the bigger question is will CanGov follow thru or political blindness sabotage the replacement process.
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Post by saratoga on Dec 16, 2017 11:05:22 GMT 12
Except Australia blames us for anything wrong with their country,or just doesn't care about us. I'd hazard a guess the remaining 18 RAAF legacy Hornets will be past usable state(ie.,clapped out)by the time they have finished with them.I'm sure Canada would have got the pick of the bunch.
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Post by snafu on Dec 16, 2017 11:46:52 GMT 12
Except Australia blames us for anything wrong with their country,or just doesn't care about us. I'd hazard a guess the remaining 18 RAAF legacy Hornets will be past usable state(ie.,clapped out)by the time they have finished with them.I'm sure Canada would have got the pick of the bunch. you really believe that?
Time and time again the AusGov has presented options to NZGov in regards to defence to upgrade equipment within our own projects to minimise cost for your budget.
From rearming the ANZACS an ASPI
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Post by thelensofhistory on Dec 16, 2017 20:41:06 GMT 12
Snafu, you raised some good points about "peacetime norms". Long development times and absurdly high costs for military hardware are not "peacetime norms" that could survive a wartime emergency. Admittedly, the difficultly would arise from a lack of trained "combat" pilots to act as RNZAF instructors.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 16, 2017 20:50:16 GMT 12
That would be the least of the difficulties regarding instructors, simply send some of the current instructors to combat units on exchange overseas for a tour with the RAAF, RAF, USAF, etc, and then when they return they have all the skills necessary.
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Post by saratoga on Dec 16, 2017 20:54:41 GMT 12
Snafu , the Australians have very much changed their tune in relation to NZ in the intervening 20+ years.I stand by my earlier remark. These days we are much better at defence project management than the Aussies,though that wouldn't take much.You might not think so from the media reports but they have had and continue to have some serious F Ups in their projects.Their process tends to be cumbersome and overspec. A prime example being the Seasprites,where in the end we got some benefit, but with no help from over the ditch.
Australian defence procurement also always has a high local content, and that comes with a high cost to us.
Apologies for going off topic.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Dec 16, 2017 21:03:46 GMT 12
'simply send some of the current instructors to combat units on exchange overseas for a tour with the RAAF, RAF, USAF, etc, and then when they return they have all the skills necessary.'
Having been involved in introducing numerous new capabilities into the NZDF both as routine planned projects and as urgent requirements for immediate deployment I'm sorry but your dreaming if you think it is that easy for personal who have no core experience with a new capability. Just think about all the trade groups that concurrently require training to operate, maintain, support and employ a new capability. I suspect there would be no trade that would not be effected.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 16, 2017 21:57:55 GMT 12
I never said it was urgent. We'll only get the new aircraft when hell freezes over anyway.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 16, 2017 21:59:48 GMT 12
The other thing is back in the olden days when there was a big gap in experience the RNZAF would put a call out to the RAF for any personnel who might like to immigrate. I am sure many experienced people would jump at that chance.
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