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Post by smithy on Jan 17, 2018 7:57:14 GMT 12
Thanks Dave, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours too!
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Post by smithy on Jan 17, 2018 6:54:13 GMT 12
Haven't been around here much over the last couple of months what with the run up to Christmas and New Years but with that out of the way I was finally able to finish Doug's Spit. Apologies for those who have already seen this today at Britmodeller but I've cut and pasted the blurb from there for here... Well here's my latest, the Tamiya 1/72 Spitfire Vb in the markings of Doug Brown's "Wine, Woman and Song" of 485(NZ) Sqn. I had a few issues along the way and this certainly wasn't the most trouble free build I've had but I'm pleased she's finished and especially due to the fact that Doug was a golfing mate of my father and I'd been lucky to visit Doug on several occasions to talk about his time flying Spits. So from a personal level this one is a little bit special. In several places (including the DK Decals sheet) I've only seen Doug's "Wine Woman and Song" portrayed as BM199 but I have a lot of info and photos of 485 and I was able to ascertain that this aircraft is actually BM200 so I ended up cannibalising the DK sheet to make the serial correct. In terms of the kit itself, well it does have some shape issues and the dihedral is not pronounced enough but it goes together very easily. The decals are typical Tamiya which I always find problematic at least in one of two areas - with this one the wing walkway lines suffered slight silvering. The DK Decals (dodgy serial aside) are excellent and went down absolutely flawlessly, I'm really thrilled with them. Unfortunately the research for this 485 Sqn Spitfires sheet has a lot of inaccuracies (not just Doug's aircraft) so if you are planning on using it, do your research first! I had an issue using Decalfix for the first time on the port underwing roundel and as a result I left it as is as it actually gave quite a good impression on the paint on the roundel having chipped off. However for the rest of the decals only Micro Sol was used. I still need to add a rear vision mirror on the top of the canopy as the kit doesn't come with one but for now I'm calling this done. In all honesty these photos aren't the best. The sun has only just returned here in Arctic Norway and lighting is completely artificial and not terribly good. I'll take a couple of better snaps and post them here when we get some sunshine. And here's the details: Paints: Humbrol enamels (163, 106, 64 and 90) brush painted Gloss coat: Pledge Extra Protection Wax (Scandinavia's bottling of Multi Surface). This was the first time I used this stuff having not brought my Klear over when we shifted country and I am completely pleased with it both as a gloss coat and canopy dip. Decals: Tamiya, DK Decals and Carpena Matt coats: Humbrol 49 and Windsor & Newton Matt varnish Weathering: Enamel sludge wash, pastels and artist pencils Cheers! Tim
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Post by smithy on Sept 28, 2017 7:55:30 GMT 12
I received an excellent reply from Typhoon and Tempest expert Chris Thomas over at the 12 O'Clock High Forum which can be read here: forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=49294Chris also very kindly gave some further information in a PM on another website we are members on and which he said would be fine to share here: "I'd love to help but regret to say I've seen neither photos nor their pilots' logs. I have trawled through 349, 485 and Predannack ORBs (none of which mention codes) and all the Tempest record cards (7 for 485 plus another which I think is an error, and 5 for 349). I could give you the arrival and departure dates for all these if required but to sum up, the Tempests all arrived at Predannack between 1 and 27 February but were "taken away" from the squadrons on 3 March. As 6 of 485's aircraft arrived (or perhaps more accurately, were taken on charge) on 27 February they did not have long to decorate them. 349 acquired theirs on 24 February. 349's all went to 33 or 222 who had just finished their conversion. 485's went to the same to units plus 274 and one to an OTU. Both units struggled on with a small number of 84 GSU Typhoons on loan, some of which, if not all, were FR.IBs." So the long and short of it? Jury is out on whether the Tempests would have been coded due to the short time they were operated, but I'm fairly certain RAF regs at this point of the war still stipulated that operational, training and conversion units had to be coded for flying. One other thing Chris said was that he was surprised to hear from the other replies that the 349 Sqn Tempests were listed with individual codes so I suppose if 349 had found time to code their ones in some fashion then the possibility exists that 485 had down the same - and lets face it life on RAF Predannack wasn't exactly hectic. But we really are jumping the gun here, we really need some photographic evidence or logbook details to clarify this. Cheers, Tim
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Post by smithy on Sept 27, 2017 6:56:31 GMT 12
You see a lot of sightseeing and "joy" flights after the cessation of hostilities with units in Germany, Denmark, etc. And of course the chance to have a crack in what the enemy was flying against you!
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 21:41:50 GMT 12
I'll have to cross check with Sortehaug/Listemann's book and Wells's but in the meantime the airmen from the photo at Predannack is a good start.
They are:
Sgt W.A. Hoskins Sgt M.J.E. Lind F/O A. Roberts P/O C.T. Wilton F/O M.C. Mayston P/O R.M Clarke P/O M.A. Collett F/O J. Darragh W/O H.M. Esdaile F/O D.L. Iggo P/O J.N. King F/L O.L. Hardy S/L K.J. Macdonald F/L S.F. Browne F/L L.M. Ralph F/O E. Te K. Bennett P/O G. Henderson P/O G.C. Earle Sgt O.O. Hunter Sgt A.J. Greer Sgt P.J Donnelly Sgt P.T. Humphrey
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 20:59:15 GMT 12
Probably long gone Dave but then again the RAF could be quite pedantic regarding records and regulations! If you are a betting man I reckon the odds have shortened significantly for OU coded Tempests and Tiffies
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 20:09:40 GMT 12
Well further information has arrived. Another member has identified 5 Tempests used by 349 and not one of them was used by 485. It really is starting to look for certain that both units had their own Tempest airframes to work on converting with which in turn seems to beg the question then why wouldn't they be marked with their own unit codes?
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 11:05:24 GMT 12
Can I ask Chris Thomas for you? Hi suthg, I've already sent Chris a message and am waiting to hear back. But thank you for the offer, great minds think alike! It really would be great if we could find some kind of definitive answer to 485's Tempests, most of 485's history is pretty well documented in terms of photos and information but these 7 or so weeks are a bit overlooked. Cheers, Tim
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Post by smithy on Sept 26, 2017 5:30:53 GMT 12
OK, I've had an answer back and very interestingly a member has given serials for three different Tempests from 485. I was honestly expecting that 349 would be sharing Tempests with 485 but this suggests that there's the possibility that they weren't. In which case if both squadrons were using separate Tempests that would logically suggest that the airframes could be coded with their own squadron codes. Obviously we need some sort of evidence from a logbook or a photograph but the idea that there could have been Tempests carrying OU codes has moved ever so slightly closer.
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Post by smithy on Sept 25, 2017 18:52:54 GMT 12
If, as you say, there was another squadron using the same pool of aircraft alongside No. 485 (NZ) Squadron,they'd not have been too happy if they were in OU codes, and vice versa, so perhaps a neutral code was used. According to the listing of RAF Squadron Codes on Wikipedia No. 33 Squadron was the only squadron to ever use 5R- as its code. However the RAF Predannack Station Flight used LF- codes. Whether that applied to just Bill's Auster and Proctor, or if it was extended to the Typhoons and Tempests when No. 33 Squadron departed, who knows. Has anyone seen photos of Typhoons or Tempests marked as LF? We know that 349 was based at Predannack during the same period and for the exact same purpose - to convert to Tempests. Like 485 the shortage of Tempests meant that this was ultimately aborted and like 485 they had a month or so on Spit IXs before taking on XVIs. The first thing we need to ascertain is whether the Tempests I listed above used by 485 were the only Tempests at Predannack, in which case I think it's probably most likely they carried codes other than 485 or 349. I've started a thread over at the 12 O'Clock High forum asking for the Tempest serials used by 349 so fingers crossed somebody should be along shortly who will know.
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Post by smithy on Sept 25, 2017 6:31:17 GMT 12
Let me pull an aircraft card for one of the Tempests from the RAF Museum. Cheaper than the National Archives, they are expensive!!! Please do Noooby. Anything which you can add would be greatly appreciated. And baz62 and isc, I think you are probably right. The Tiffie had a daunting reputation and by all accounts was not for the faint of heart. By this stage of the war they rectified the "falling off tail" feature but it was still a real brute. Clostermann gives a rather detailed account of his first flight in one in his "The Big Show". I had a poke around on the NA site and saw that unfortunately the March 1945 Records of Events section of the ORB is not listed which is a bit of a bugger but the February and April Records of Events and Summaries are available. I'm very intrigued now by how these Tempests would have been coded. The more I think of it the more I just cannot imagine that they remained flying for 7 or so weeks in earlier squadrons' codes.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:50:51 GMT 12
Probably Dave, but I've spent a packet over at the NA over the years. I'm hoping somebody already has this and can enlighten us, or else some other poor sap can cough up the dough and post the info here!
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:27:33 GMT 12
I think it's safe to say for whatever reason RAF Predannack at this time wasn't the most hectic aerodrome in southern England in terms of flying!
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 15:15:09 GMT 12
We'd have to look at the ORB and probably the Summary of Events document in terms of weather and mitigating factors against flying but I'll be honest I don't have it for 485 for this period, my real interest with 485 is 1941 to 1943. Hopefully somebody here has the ORB, both Records of Events and Summary of Events for this period and can contribute. The problem might be compounded by the fact that you have both 485 and 349 competing for airframes for training purposes and from only one aerodrome and logistically planning training flights so that neither unit interferes with the other unit's training flight areas.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 14:53:37 GMT 12
I'll dig my 485 books and bits and pieces out later (it's very late or very early here depending on how you look at it) so don't want to wake the whole house. But I'm pretty sure I can give a complete list of 485 personnel at Predannack.
I suppose the Holy Grail would be if there was a Tempest or Tempests with OU codes but even though I'd like to think so, the jury is out. It's a lovely idea but as we know there was a shortage of Tempests at the time - hence why neither 485 nor 349 fully converted - so whether this happened who knows. But on the other hand it would be odd for both these squadrons to keep using aircraft with different unit codes for so long. We know that 485 operated 7 Tiffies and 7 Tempests but it would be interesting to confirm whether these 14 airframes were the complete complement at Predannack at the time and therefore shared between 485 and 349. In which case how were they coded, painted up split between 485 and 349 codes or something else.
I think that apart from long lost photos suddenly appearing the best bet is as you suggest Dave are pilot logbooks.
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 13:48:45 GMT 12
So from Graham's post, it might be that the No. 33 Squadron Tempests did in fact remain at Predannack when that squadron left,and were indeed flown by No. 485 (NZ) Squadron members. Was Rosie Mackie in No. 485 Squadron? I associate him with No. 486 (NZ) Squadron. Was he in both? Rosie was with 485 but well before the sojourn in Predannack. He was with them from August 1941 until January 1943, in fact 485 was his first operational posting after leaving 58 OTU. What becomes interesting for me if 33 left their Tempests in Cornwall is the fact that we know from photographic evidence that they were marked with 33's squadron codes during their time there. So does that mean that 485 and 349 flew aircraft still wearing 33 (and 222) codes for nearly 2 months or were the aircraft repainted and with what, or if any, codes?
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Post by smithy on Sept 24, 2017 13:34:40 GMT 12
I missed this the first time around Dave (or should that be Sparky). You were one very, very, very lucky bugger! Buy a 10 years anniversary lotto ticket just in case
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 22:57:16 GMT 12
Keep them coming Dave. I love these sorts of images as well because they give you a great deal of information about where they lived and worked from. I love photos like this too but these are the only ones i have from Predannack like this. But given they were official photos I suspect someone got the station photographer to take more like this. Oh without a doubt there will have been/will be many more photos. That's one of the exciting things about researching this and this period, there are multitudes of new photos and new information to be found hidden away in private collections or buried in dusty historical collections. I've been researching one of my rellies for quite some time now and I'm still finding new things or being contacted by those who have something new. I really wouldn't be surprised if there are other photos of 485 with their Tempests but they're probably long forgotten and stuffed in a box in someone's attic with the current owner completely oblivious to what they are.
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 9:25:24 GMT 12
All the above Serial Numbers are from Part 2 of the Third Production Batch of Typhoons, from Glosters. Deliveries started on the 20th of Sept 1942 and the last one of this batch was delivered on 5th May 1943. All were Mark 1B's. You're exactly right and my mistake as I copied the wrong line in my post above, those were the Tiffies used by 485. But we do actually know the Tempests used by 485 and their serials were EJ882, NV701, NV682, NV756, NV762, NV922 and NV939. Cheers, Tim
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Post by smithy on Sept 23, 2017 1:11:26 GMT 12
Keep them coming Dave. I love these sorts of images as well because they give you a great deal of information about where they lived and worked from.
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